Author Topic: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?  (Read 21108 times)

Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2010, 04:00:44 AM »
It would be great if all players had to announce a raise every time. After seeing the video I have to agree with Mike B that the player on the BB was just as guilty as SB. When does a verbal declaration have meaning? Only when it's your turn to act? Would the big blind have a commitment to raise, as he stated, before the SB called? I saw another problem in that video and that was the silent dealer. Has it really become that bad, that a dealer can't control a table and make sure that the players follow basic rules. That dealer didn't even open his mouth when they wanted the floor! By the way, I had no problem with the ruling that was made. I would have allowed the raise, too.
Nick C
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 10:43:55 AM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2010, 04:54:55 AM »
How was the player in the BB as guilty?? he made a valid raise with chips.  there was nothing unclear in his actions.

Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2010, 06:04:22 AM »
The player in the big blind told the player in the small blind that he was going to raise him before the SB acted. Too much table talk.
Nick C

Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 07:49:25 AM »
  This gets more interesting after watching the video again. I have a Question regarding the BB. When he said " you're going to limp, I'm going to raise, and you're going to call." Would you have held the BB to his out of turn verbal declaration, (as stated in rule #29 Verbal Declarations/Acting in turn) if he checked after the SB called? I think this is a perfect example of why this ruling was created, to stop this type of table chatter.

                     Here is the TDA ruling #29 Verbal Declarations/Acting in Turn

           Verbal declarations in turn are binding. Players are required to act in turn. Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed. A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.

     The way I understand this rule, the only action that was not defined that would have changed the action , would have been a raise by the SB. In that case, the out of turn verbal declaration by the BB could be retracted and not enforced.

  Both players were guilty of violations of rules. That's what makes all of this interesting and worthy of debate.



Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2010, 08:28:01 AM »
Everybody is locked on to the verbal declaration(s) or lack there of and the rules do discuss this.

The scenario that becomes tricky is when 2 different stacks are moved at different times and this is where confusion comes to play.

Was the first stack smaller, equal to or greater than the the amount required to be put in? Just because somebody says they're going to push back doesn't declare a raise, and you have to pay close attention to this.

Just remember that there are players who don't use a verbal declarations and the first one who comes to mind is Humberto Brennes.

MikeB

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2010, 11:03:30 PM »
I have a Question regarding the BB. When he said " you're going to limp, I'm going to raise, and you're going to call." Would you have held the BB to his out of turn verbal declaration, (as stated in rule #29 Verbal Declarations/Acting in turn) if he checked after the SB called? I think this is a perfect example of why this ruling was created, to stop this type of table chatter.   Here is the TDA ruling #29 Verbal Declarations/Acting in Turn:  Verbal declarations in turn are binding. Players are required to act in turn. Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed. A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.
The way I understand this rule, the only action that was not defined that would have changed the action , would have been a raise by the SB. In that case, the out of turn verbal declaration by the BB could be retracted and not enforced. Both players were guilty of violations of rules. That's what makes all of this interesting and worthy of debate. Nick C
Hi Nick: First of all I think that you do, as TD, have the authority to enforce any verbal statement that you feel should be enforced. Period. And that's exactly why players should be careful of what they say. Note that at the 2009 Summit the membership added language to Rule 31 that "It is players responsibility to make his intentions clear". While this is found in a rule pertaining to Bets and Raises, it can IMO be applied to ANY situation where a player makes a potentially actionable gesture or expression. And the upshot of it is that when the TD makes a ruling on that action, if the ruling is other than what the player intended, it's the players fault, not the TD's. We are not mindreaders. If we see some action taking place that we feel should be interpreted a certain way, it's our duty to do so. That said, like any set of judges, different TDs may rule differently on non-standard situations. And in this case, the BB's rambling expression is quite non-standard. The "guidelines" that I use wrt verbals out of turn generally include: 1) the verbal must be unambiguous (i.e. "I have to raise" is unambiguous vs. "I probably have to raise" gives the player an out although I might warn on it); 2) I don't like to be put in the situation of enforcing "conditional" expressions. In this case the BBs declaration is conditional "you do this then I do that"... what if he added another player "you do this then he does that then I do X".. it just gets too rambling to be enforceable, IMO, so I usually treat it as trash talk and give a warning if it's too excessive. That said, it's the players responsibility to make themselves clear. If a TD hears this expression and interprets it as a binding commitment, then the player has to live with that, they'll be more careful next time.

Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2010, 12:55:53 PM »
Mike B,
 
  It was good to hear your response and I agree with you when you say that different TD's will make different rulings. That's what keeps the Discussion Forum alive. I like to teach my student dealers to stay on top of these situations because a floor person isn't always there, with their eyes and ears at the table, when a situation occurs. When an action is unclear to a dealer, it is probably unclear to players also. A good dealer (that wants to save some headaches) should stop the unclear bet, or out of turn action (verbal or otherwise) immediately. Many actions of players are done unintentionally; like betting or raising out of turn because you didn't see the intervening player. When caught in time, this can usually be backed-up and corrected. Unfortunately sometimes these bets can't be retracted for a number of reasons.
  My big concern is the few players that make intentional "moves" like betting out of turn to get a reaction from another player. There are players that talk too much, there are players that we wish would say more. There are players that respect the game and follow the rules and then there are the ones we are always talking about. The best rule of all is under GENERAL CONCEPTS  rule #1 Floor People; The best interest of the game and fairness are mentioned and The Floorperson's decision is final.
  I'd really like to see the dealers become a little more involved and quick to recognize mistakes before they require a decision from the floor.
  I would also like to point out that I made a mistake on an earlier post on this subject: While dissecting rule #29 I failed to recognize a bet along with the mentioned raise as changing the action to the out of turn bettor.
     Thanks for listening
Nick C  

 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 09:51:38 AM by Nick C »

Mike Lorne

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2010, 08:15:25 AM »
I thought this was pretty forward and in the best interest of the games fairness DN anounced his intention but was extermely vague as TD I would call this a string raise and it is not allowed and a warning for misrepresenting the intent to other players and the dealer ,this is why  verbal is binding ,(to clarify intent to the table)he had no problem being verbal ,so why be vague? is it to be malicious ? maybe (I dont think so here ) but nonetheless,thats my call.
                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                       Good luck, Michael Lorne

Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2010, 05:47:01 PM »
Michael,
 I assume that you find nothing wrong with the verbal comments of the BB prior to what you believe to be a string raise by the small blind? I think that sometimes we try to over-think a situation when making a call on action out of turn. The ruling should be quite simple. This is what I consider. THIS IS NOT A TDA RULE. This is my interpretation of rulings that I have used with favorable response.

                                                  INTENT
                                                    
      1) Any deliberate action out of turn will not be tolerated. Verbal or otherwise. This includes folding out of turn.
                          a) Deliberate action should include words or actions and gestures.
                          b)  If the action can be backed up to the proper player, the player that checked out of turn can only call, check or fold.

                                              OUT OF TURN
              
       2) Action out of turn is binding if the intervening player or players that were skipped do not change the action by initiating  a bet or raise
                 a) Action out of turn can not be retracted by the offender once action ensues behind them. Example; player A bets, players B and C are skipped by
the out of turn raise by player D. Player E re-raises. At this point it is too late to back-up the action to the proper player. Player D may call all bets but, may not retract his out of turn raise.
                                              
                                 CHARACTER AND REPUTATION
        
         3) The character and reputation of certain players may be considered when making a final decision. An accidental out of turn action may be handled with a warning; however, a repeat offender is subject to severe penalty, up to and including exclusion from play.
                                        
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 02:38:54 PM by Nick C »

Martin L. Waller

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2010, 01:15:00 PM »
Ok, I watched the video.
Itís so good to see even the pros do stupid stuff.
That was so ďhome gameĒ of DN.
The video may have been edited but the TD should have listened to the dealer before her heard from anyone else.
DNís words and actions did indicate a raise but to just read the question I had doubts.
As TD I would have gotten the information from the dealer then if I wasnít 100% clear listen to the players.
I would have allowed the raise and mentioned to DN to be clearer about his intentions.
Martin

Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2010, 01:41:21 PM »
Martin,
  I would like to know if you agree with the replies that I made on this subject. It is obvious to me that you are a dealer and by some of your responses, a good one. I have been training poker dealers for about thirty years and I have a tendency to blame them for many of the problems that are discussed on this forum. If you look back on a couple of my replies on this subject, you will notice that I mentioned the fact that the dealer didn't even call for the floor, Daniel did. If you were dealing, the situation might have been completely different. Do you agree?

Nick C

Martin L. Waller

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2010, 02:54:47 PM »
Nick,

Thanks for the comments. I have dealt for the WSOP and WPT. I try to do it right.

First of all, by the way the players acted after the raise, it looked like the Dealer did call it a raise. Then when the players started asking for the Floor he should have made it clear that is what they wanted and called the Floor for the players. He seemed to freeze up at that point and leave it up to DN to call the Floor

Most of this stuff was mindless chatter, what Deeb said before the action and DNís comments about being a ďchildĒ itís all just banter between players. Itís unnecessary but all too common.

The only thing I have a problem with is the assumption that DNís reputation and celebrity status had anything to do with the decision. Every player should have the same rights and under the rules.

Thanks,
Martin

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2011, 01:44:11 AM »
The compelling factor for me is that the floor person didn't speak to the dealer first or ask if what DN said was correct.  When the floor makes this decision without checking all the facts, he is basing the decision on only DN's statement, unclear or not.

Hearing the first comment it is clearly a call and the bet was a string raise.  Even after the second changed comment I may have also ruled it a call because it was not a definitive comment. 
Thanks!

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W0lfster

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2011, 05:21:00 AM »
It is a call, but I believe if the SB stated raise and the amount of the raise then he could raise in more than one motion due to the fact it maybe a large chipstack. If he said raise however with no amount stated then I would allow him to raise in only one motion. I think thats right lol.

Nick C

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2011, 07:31:32 AM »
I went back to look at the video again but, it was removed from youtube.