Author Topic: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?  (Read 20577 times)

DCJ001

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You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« on: February 22, 2010, 05:11:27 PM »
In a Tournament, action folds to the blinds.

Before the small blind gets a chance to act, the big blind says, "You're gonna limp, I'm gonna raise, you're gonna call."

The small blind then limps in. The big blind then tosses in a raise with one motion.

The small blind looks surprised, asks how much more it is to him, picks up two stacks of chips in two hands, says, "I'm gonna pound you back a little more," then (in two distinctly separate motions) places the call amount followed by another stack about one second later.

The big blind then says, "You know that's a string raise."

The small blind says, "I said 'I'm gonna pound you back.'"

The big blind calls for a floor person to make a ruling. The small blind says that he said, "I'm gonna pound it up a little more."

The tournament is regulated by TDA rules which state:

30.   Methods of Raising
In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by (1) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring “raise” prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion. It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear.

You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 05:31:26 PM by DCJ001 »

Stuart Murray

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 05:49:58 PM »
Pretty straight forward IMO it's a call.  No raise was announced and whilst it may of been his intention to raise he did not make his intentions clear therefore his actions of placing the call amount in first can only be assumed a call.

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Stuart

chet

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 06:20:48 PM »
I would rule it is a call.  I do not believe he met any of the three conditions of TDA Rule 30.

Condition 1 - he did not place the full amount into the pot in one motion,
Condition 2 - he did not make a verbal declaration of the full amount,
Condition 3 - he did not verbally declare "Raise", did not place the amount of the call into the pot with his initial motion and then the full amount of the raise with one additional motion.

As Stuart said, he may fully have intended to raise.  However, his method of do so does not meet the requirements of TDA Rule 30.

Hope this helps!!

Dave Lamb

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 07:20:53 PM »


I am making that a call. The sloppier we get in enforcement of clear, concise requirements from the players, the sloppier the game becomes with terminology for poker actions.

Tell me what this means in your part of the country: "Bust it up, sugar." "To the sky". "I guess I'm done, soon".
Without some other clear indication as to the players intent, none of the above statements mean anything in poker.

I cannot skillfully interpret a players intention when they use a foreign language, a slang expression, an original gesture, or some other creative comic verbiage to mean "raise". I like the idea of TD's going to rule 30 whenever there is the slightest doubt about a players' actions.

DCJ001

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 07:45:57 PM »

I am making that a call. The sloppier we get in enforcement of clear, concise requirements from the players, the sloppier the game becomes with terminology for poker actions.

Tell me what this means in your part of the country: "Bust it up, sugar." "To the sky". "I guess I'm done, soon".
Without some other clear indication as to the players intent, none of the above statements mean anything in poker.

I cannot skillfully interpret a players intention when they use a foreign language, a slang expression, an original gesture, or some other creative comic verbiage to mean "raise". I like the idea of TD's going to rule 30 whenever there is the slightest doubt about a players' actions.

I appreciate everyone's opinion about this hand.

TDA Rule # 30 says, "verbally declaring 'raise' prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion. It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear."

It's my impression that, because "raise" is in quotation marks, it must be stated verbatim before the call amount is placed into the pot, when a two motion raise is done. The small blind also said to the big blind, in an effort to justify his position, while waiting for the floor person to arrive, "I'm gonna pound you back a little more" or "Kick it up, buttercup" or "Up scope" or "I feel like putting more in" counts as a raise. None of these phrases, nor the ones to which Dave referred, contain the word "raise."

It's also interesting that the small blind changed his statement from "I'm gonna pound you back a little more," when he attempted to raise, to "I'm gonna pound it up a little more" when the floor person arrived.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with the hand that I've outlined in this thread. But, if you're interested in seeing it, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=mFw1EW468rk#t=3m20s

In some ways intent is important. But rules should be applied consistently and with attention to details as words or phrases in quotation marks. I also believe that players with intelligence, knowledge, and experience should understand the rules of poker and should make an effort to play within the rules and to set examples for those who are new to the game.

I welcome any additional opinions or feedback.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 07:51:54 PM by DCJ001 »

MikeB

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 11:38:39 PM »
Before watching the video, I'll state how I'd probably rule if I were standing right behind the action here:

1) Let's assume (as I do, before seeing the tape), that the entirety of the SB's gestures, body language, etc. looked like a guy intent on raising.
2) His statement "push you back", I can construe as gibberish related to raising. Something akin to "back at ya"...
3) And his fistfulls of chips that (I presume) well exceed the call, also indicate he intends to raise.

BUT, as is well pointed out here, both his declare (push you back) and his two-fisted chip advance are both non-standard and don't fall precisely within the outlines for a certain raise.

Under these conditions I would likely grant the guy a raise of whichever fistfull he put out first OR a min raise, whichever is more. I wouldn't grant the second fistfull normally for the reasons stated, as described it sounds like a string raise.

This said, I wouldn't overrule a ruling at the table for a call, and would absolutely admonish the guy to be more clear in his actions in the future. It also raises the question what if this guy did just intend to call but said "push you back".... IMO he COULD be held to at least a minraise if a TD construed that to mean raise. The new rule at the 09 Summit regarding "players responsibility to make their actions clear" puts the responsibility for these nebulous utterances squarely on the player. If the player gets a ruling different than his intention, it's his fault. Now I'll watch the tape...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:16:22 AM by MikeB »

MikeB

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 11:51:47 PM »
So Dan Negreanu was the SB here. This is an interesting tape. It was ultimately ruled a raise.

For whatever reason, when I initially read the OP I had the impression that the SB had just grabbed two random fistfulls of chips and pushed them out in a string fashion, but in re-reading the OP that's not how it's described and that's not what's on the tape.... The sequence on the tape was: 1) Daniel makes the declaration "I'm gonna pound you back a little more" (the actual words used)... then 2) The amount to call was put out with one fist then 3) The amount to raise was put out with the other ...  

Given the entirety of the action on the tape, I think it's consistent with TDA Rule 30, method #3.  I disagree with the other player on the tape (Deeb, the BB) here, that this was a string raise, although given that the amounts were pushed out separately it might initially have appeared that way.

While the choice of verbiage on the declare was somewhat dubious, the phrase "...a little more..." just absolutely locks in an obligation to raise, IMO. I agree with the ruling on the tape. I do think DN should have been advised to make his intentions clearer in the future.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:17:19 AM by MikeB »

Stuart Murray

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 08:04:01 AM »
I am not so sure that it was a valid raise.  One thing immediately brought to my attention was that the Floor listened only to DN, did not clarify with the aggrieved BB or the Dealer, instead make quite a quick ruling that the raise stands.  given what I saw I don't agree it was a legal raise IMO.

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DCJ001

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2010, 11:28:00 AM »
It's also interesting that the small blind changed his statement from "I'm gonna pound you back a little more," when he attempted to raise, to "I'm gonna pound it up a little more" when the floor person arrived.

After the floor person made the ruling and left the table. One of the players not in the hand commented on the change of words (possibly to influence the floor person?)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:13:13 PM by DCJ001 »

paulferd

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2010, 02:14:26 PM »
I agree with MikeB here....if we are going to apply part 3 of rule #30, let's use all of the wording, i.e. "It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear." Watching the tape only solidifies this adding the part of the phrase that is most important, "a little more." I think that I let this go as a raise and also give the SB a warning to be absolutely clear with your intentions in the future. Also as a TD, i don't care how famous or well known the player is, or whether he's on TV or not, I'm going to the Dealer for an explanation of the situation and not going to let a player bully his way into the explanation. What kind of example/precedence are you allowing to be set there?

my .02
Paul R
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Georg

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 09:10:04 PM »
I would rule it a call. The phrase used by the SB is not entirely clear. The only thing entirely clear is the movement of the hands, and thats two movements and thats a call.

As I said in another post, if the dealer has to think about what you intended to do, then you did not make yourself clear enough. If in doubt it is a string bet.

Georg

MikeB

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 10:24:40 PM »
Something else I noticed when watching the tape: it's interesting that the BB wants it both ways: A) Deeb engages in what could be called distractive banter with his "you limp, I call, you raise" comments (whatever he was mumbling)...

THEN, when Daniel engages in a bit of creative mumbling of his own, Deeb wants DN held to absolute textbook raising language! :)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 11:09:18 PM by MikeB »

CarlFeathers

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2010, 03:56:43 PM »
That is a Call. Pounding you more is not declaring a raise, all that is, is table talk.

DCJ001

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 01:11:08 PM »
That is a Call. Pounding you more is not declaring a raise, all that is, is table talk.

Neither is "I'm gonna pound you back," which is what was said.

bessernd

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Re: You Make The Ruling: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2010, 08:43:49 AM »
I am with the opinion of almost everyone who replied.  It is a call.

I would then warn the entire table to verbally declare their bets and not do "childish" games by saying "I am going to pound you back."