Author Topic: Penalty absence timing  (Read 10372 times)

W0lfster

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Penalty absence timing
« on: February 26, 2011, 04:58:33 PM »
I was just wondering because quite a few TD's here have told me about how to handle penalties in the forms of a round penalty rather than timed. By this I mean the player who is penalised misses a one round penalty, however my question is if the player is on the button and is penalised after the hand making him the cut off for the next hand, when is he/she allowed back in if it is a one round penalty. Does the player come back and play when the button is back on his/ her seat or when he/she becomes the cut off?

Also if the player CAN play on the button, wouldnt he/she have to wait till the button passes?

Thanks  :)

chet

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 07:41:23 PM »
Round penalties are computed in accordance with TDA rule #40, which says in pertinent part "...The offender will miss one hand for every player, including the offender, who is at the table when the penalty is given multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty..." 

So, if there are 10 players at the table and the player holding the button is assessed a one round penalty that starts with the next hand (player is now the Cut-Off), the first penalty hand would be the player to the immediate left of the penalized player (who is now the button).  So you just have to count the number of hands, lets assume it is a one round penalty.  The first hand is when the penalized player is the Cut-Off.  The last hand of the penalty would be the hand in which he is the Button.  He is allowed to come back to the table when he is again in the Cut-Off position.

As to your last question it is not material since he cannot play the Button.  But if he could, he could come back on the Button because for the entire penalty period, he is dealt cards and MUST pay all Blinds and Antes.  It is no different than it would be if the player was in the restroom or at the bar.  In a tournament that player is dealt cards and has to play the blinds, etc.

W0lfster

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 02:50:33 AM »
Arrr ok so are you saying if he was penalised while being the small blind, next hand the button, hed then have to wait 1 round and then he comes back on the button and can play it?

chet

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 08:25:58 AM »
Andy:  Look at TDA Rule #40.  It is very clear how 'round' penalties are applied.  I am sure you can figure this out.

Dave Lamb

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2011, 11:52:27 PM »

When using round penalties it is a good idea to place a post-it at the table or on the offenders chip stack to indicate the number of hands that are to be missed. If you break the table or players fill the table in you will want to have an accurate count on those missed hands.

W0lfster

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2011, 12:07:21 AM »
Good point Dave, please give me an example of a situation of a broken table where the round penalty may need to be adjusted.

Dave Lamb

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 03:41:23 PM »
WOlfster,

The offense occurs with seven players at the table, three new players arrive while the penalized player is sitting out and his chips are being anted and blinded. While we refer to it as a 'one round penalty', in reality it is exactly seven hands in this case. A common error by TD's is to access the penalty, leave the table after making a statement like,"Dave may return when the button is in the 2 seat". That would be true only if no players are eliminated or join the table, the correct statement is, "Dave may return to the table after sitting out 7 hands".

We should not adjust the total number of hands missed by a player on penalty. The challenge is to make sure the correct number of hands are accurately tallied for the absent player on penalty.

W0lfster

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2011, 09:01:53 AM »
sobasically speaking lets say its the final table and there is 10 players, 1 player is penalised and leaves the table for a full round penalty (10 hands) if after then 4 players are eliminated while the player is still penalised, the button can go round twice since it must equal 10 hands? Even though its meant to be a 1 round penalty?

Dave Lamb

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2011, 11:39:29 PM »
WOlfster,

I suppose a player could miss two sets of blinds if we moved him to a new table during the penalty or in the situation you describe...but then the offending player is to blame for placing himself in jeopardy of that happening, not the TD.

I am not very sympathetic to players that are blinded off or lose a large percentage of their chip stack due to actions that EARN them a penalty.

W0lfster

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 04:28:47 AM »
so even though they've moved tables in the example I have given, its still 10 hands? not miss lets say 3 hands move to a new table and miss another 10 hands? Or would it be miss 7 hands if I was to be moved after missing 3 on the previous table?

chet

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2011, 12:30:34 PM »
Andy"

A ten hand penalty is a ten hand penalty.  It doesn't matter if it is 9 and 1, 8 and 2, 7 and 3, 6 and 4 or 5 and 5.  Furthermore, it doesn't matter how many tables either.  It is certainly possible that after 3 hands at the original table, he could be moved and after 1 or 2 hands at that table he could be moved again.  He still has to sit out ten hands.

Ricky9

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 08:25:08 AM »
Hi there,

Situation:
Blinds are 100/200 no ante, 9 handed tables. This table was playing 8 handed, Button receives a one round penalty, but knocks two players out in the offending hand making it 6 handed. I break a table and his table fills up, he comes back in from penalty on the big blind?? Has posted no blinds whilst on penalty and just gone for a smoke as he regularly does during the game. How exactly has he been penalized?

As it happens I knew his table would be receiving more players so I told him he could back in on the button. Did I do wrong?

chet

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2011, 09:29:40 AM »
Welcome:

The player MUST miss a total of 8 hands, during which time he must post all blinds and antes applicable to his position.  If the table fills up, so be it.  He is eligible to return on the 9th hand, regardless of whether that hand is the button or the blinds, even though I don't like it.

Ricky9

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 06:52:36 PM »
Quote
The offender will miss one hand for every player, including the offender, who is at the table when the penalty is given multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty

As I give the penalty after the hand, should it be a 6 hand penalty or 8 hand penalty, as only 6 players remain at the table?

chet

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Re: Penalty absence timing
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2011, 08:05:57 PM »
One hand for every player at the table, including the offender, at the time the penalty is given. 

The rule says "at the time the penalty is given", and that the penalty will start upon completion of the hand in progress, it does not say the penalty is given at the end of the hand, so I think 8 is the correct answer.