Author Topic: Dealer says its 300 more to you  (Read 4959 times)

Motobaka72

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Dealer says its 300 more to you
« on: April 29, 2021, 05:36:34 PM »
Is there a rule or procedure preventing the dealer from announcing how much more a player needs to call?

For example
Albert bets 100
Bernard raices to 400
Dealer says to Albert: its 300 more to go.

I've always instructed my dealers to state the amount of the raise or the bet, but lately I've been trying to document it and I'm not sure where I got that from.

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2021, 08:25:22 AM »
I'm a lead dealer and train new dealers for a pub league in NJ.

I wrote a 7 page "Dealer Guidelines" document that is intended to help new dealers that may know the basics, but not some of the nitty-gritty.

In it I state:
Quote
Dealers are encouraged to count and announce bets whenever possible and practical.

Some of our players object, stating it's not the way they do it in casinos. I respond saying that I've seen it plenty of times and think it's more of a 'house rules' sort of thing.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2021, 08:35:50 AM »
I should have checked first.

Thereís a 2019 TDA procedure for that.

Quote from: TDA Procedure 12: Dealers Should Announce Bets & Raises
Dealers should routinely announce non-all-in bet values as betting proceeds around the table. All-in bets will be counted only on request of the player currently facing action. Accepted action continues to apply (Rule 49). Scheduled and discretionary color-ups improve bet countability.

Of course, kinda happy my guidelines agree - except I donít make the exception for all-ins.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 08:38:18 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Motobaka72

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2021, 09:31:11 AM »
What I'm trying to say is if its ok for the dealer to say how much more a person has to call rather than the complete bet amount.

Let me try to clarify my example.

For example
Albert bets 100
Bernard raises to 400
Dealer says to Albert: its 300 more to go. Instead of dealer says to Albert: raise to 400.



Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2021, 12:56:29 PM »
Oh. Thatís covered too.
 
Quote from: TDA Procedure 12: Dealers Should Announce Bets & Raises
Dealers should routinely announce non-all-in bet values....

Announce the total amount.

I would think that if the player ask how much more, then itís ok. And probably automatically ok if the player asks for the initial bet to be brought in.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Motobaka72

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2021, 04:56:12 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to point me to the rule.

I'm aware of the rule. Its just that some clients say that a dealer should not announce how much more to call, but I can't find documentation on it.

BillM16

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2021, 06:12:12 AM »
The TDA Rules and Recommended Procedures are meant to facilitate orderly games that are friendly, accurate, and timely. 

Rule #49, in part, says: "It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others."

It recognizes that others, including the dealer, might attempt to help the caller with information that may or may not be accurate.

Recommended Procedure #12 encourages dealers to announce the bet as action proceeds around the table.  Clearly, the intent is to facilitate accurate game play.

Your question asks whether or not it is acceptable for a dealer to help the caller determine the amount required to call versus simply stating the total bet amount, thus leaving the required math exercise to the caller.  As you note, some of your clients think that the dealer shouldn't help with the math. 

That seems a bit silly to me.  Do these clients think that an accurate and timely amount to call is some sort of arcane secret advantage not to be freely shared?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 06:13:16 AM by BillM16 »

Motobaka72

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2021, 02:17:45 PM »

That seems a bit silly to me.  Do these clients think that an accurate and timely amount to call is some sort of arcane secret advantage not to be freely shared?

Its certainly seems that way.
It quite comon where I'm from for people in the industry to frown upon a dealer helping with the math (arcane secret).

:)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 12:12:57 PM by Motobaka72 »

BillM16

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2021, 08:08:01 AM »
It is always important for the dealer to provide helpful information in a manner that avoids influencing action.  Obviously, it is inappropriate for a dealer to say: "It is only one small chip to make the call."

There can be concerns of psychological factors like the power of suggestion and cognitive bias, either real of perceived.  For example, there have been many studies supporting the notion that lower prices ending in .99 sell better than a one cent higher price.  Others show that by first anchoring a larger or smaller number it will often influence a subsequent decision.  This can come into play in your situation.

By definition, the total amount raised is more than a previous amount called.  As in your case, the amount to make the call is smaller than the total amount raised.  So, the "silly client" is perhaps arguing that a dealer who states the larger total amount raised is likely to produce different action by the caller than when the dealer speaks of the smaller amount to call.  The raiser might want the opponent to fold to the larger number and is afraid of a call given the smaller number.

The end result seems to be that the silly client gave the opponent more information by objecting to the dealers help.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:11:24 AM by BillM16 »

Motobaka72

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2021, 04:52:30 PM »
If I may, I would like to extend a question with a kind of similar matter.

Flop
Albert bets 500
Bernard raises to 2,500
Charly thinks for a while and then asks the dealer what happened.

Is the dealer supposed to tell Charly? Chips are in the correct place and everything is cristal clear. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 10:28:05 AM by Motobaka72 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2021, 07:18:57 PM »
If I may, I would like to extend a question with a kind of similar matter.

Flop
Albert bets 500
Bernard raises to 2,500
Charly thinks for a while and then asks the dealer what happened.

Is the dealer supposed to tell Charly? Chips are in the correct place and everything is criatal clear.

Here’s the beginning of a couple items from the TDA rules.
Quote
Rule 49: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. ...

Procedure 12: Dealers Should Announce Bets & Raises
Dealers should routinely announce non-all-in bet values as betting proceeds around the table. ...

Based on this, I’d say the only thing the dealer should say is, “The action is to you.” and/or “It’s 2,500 to call.”
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 07:23:10 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2021, 04:36:30 AM »
I agree with Dave.  The dealer should tell Charly that it is 2,500 to call.  Descriptions of chronological actions should not be stated by the dealer or other players. One player per hand.

Lado

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2021, 09:03:46 PM »
It's rather simple: A bets 2000, B announces: raisec 5000! B must put in 7000 chips. If he were to say: raise  to 5000 then he only had to put in 3000 on top, total of 5000

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2021, 05:05:33 AM »
It's rather simple: A bets 2000, B announces: raisec 5000! B must put in 7000 chips. If he were to say: raise  to 5000 then he only had to put in 3000 on top, total of 5000
This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Itís also wrong.

Quote from: TDA Rule 43 part B
Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Ex: A opens for 2000, B declares ďRaise, eight thousand.Ē The total bet is 8000.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Lado

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2021, 04:31:01 AM »
Ok, I'll simply for you: it's a $1/$2 cash game. Small blind completes. After the flop he bets $5. The BB says: I raise $15! It literally means: " I call your $5 and then I raise another $15". So he must put in $20! Very simple. If he were to say: " I raise to $15 then he had to put in $5 first and then another $10 to complete the fraise in total of $15. I hope I explained it in way that you understand. Do not change the English language, you have no right or the ability...