2 cases folding too soon

[Guillaume Gleize]

What about those 2 cases of premature fold in self-dealing tournament (to cancel any comments on what the dealer should have done):

1) Preflop > The player at BB forget his position and folds his cards before without paying the BB > Only one player folds after him then everybody realize the error and call for the floor > The player must pay the BB but would like to take back his cards that are clearly discernible > Do you give him back his cards?

2) Postflop > Four players > Player A bets > players B and C fold > player A forget player D and folds before any action from player D > They call for the floor > Player A would like to take back his cards that are clearly discernible > Do you give him back his cards?

TY in advance - GG

[Max D]

In both cases I think we can use substantial action rule, there are "no arm no foul",  the card are retrievable and nobody as "subtantially acted".
Give the card back and keep going.
 

[BROOKS]

Yes, according to TDA rules, Max is correct. In both situations the players could have their cards back - as long as they were identifiable and retrievable. Which shouldn't be the case, since in both scenerios, other players have folded after them.

Here is the TDA wording. Although it is talking about showdown, the same should apply.

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

[Boris]

Hello folks,

I beg to differ with my fellow companions.

Case 1 : IMO it is a fold out of turn. Player should pay attention to the game, so they should know when they are required to post and when to act. Hand is mucked, player gets a warning.
Case 2 : I agree, if cards are identifiable, player A gets their card back, and a warning for the same reason above.

However, I know which kind of tournament Guillaume is talking about, these tend to not penalize too much because a fair proportion of players are online players and are not used to live tournaments, so in case 1, I may use rule 1 to give the cards back and still issue a friendly warning. (which does not count as a real one)

[Dave Miller]

In both cases, the cards should be returned, and remain in play. Identifiable, and retrievable, etc.

Of course, for the BB, a warning/penalty is not necessary. After all, he’s playing out of position, and more or less told anybody that’s paying attention that he’s got crappy cards. 🤪

[Nick C]

I need more information to answer your questions.

In your first example I want to know how many players were in the hand, and when did the BB fold?
It's hard to imagine that the betting began in proper order.

I never liked the idea of retrieving mucked cards.

You mentioned that many of these players were originally online players. That might be a good way to arrive at the proper decision.

When playing online, none of these scenarios are even possible. You can't act out of turn and you can not retrieve a mucked hand.

[Dave Miller]

When playing online, none of these scenarios are even possible. You can't act out of turn and you can not retrieve a mucked hand.

While you can’t retrieve mucked cards, you CAN act out of turn.

When I get new players in my league, I ask about their poker experience. When they tell me they play online, I tell them the software does things for you, and encourages you to learn bad habits. Specifically, online you can call or fold ahead of time, as well as check a box to automatically post blinds. In online limit poker, you can even automatically raise even if there’s a raise before you.

But auto posting is why some players often forget to post, then act first when they are BB.

[Nick C]

Our friend doesn't want us to address dealer mistakes, but tell me, when dealing the first thing you ask for are blinds to be posted. So how does a player fold without his blind and when did he fold?

I will never agree to retrieving anything from the muck...sorry, unless it were clearly tabled before it was mucked! You surrender your hand, it's dead!