Author Topic: Dealer says its 300 more to you  (Read 4960 times)

Nick C

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2021, 07:59:15 AM »
This is the original question: Is there a rule or procedure preventing the dealer from announcing how much more a player needs to call?
 To say that Lado's reply has nothing to do with this post is stretching it a bit. I believe that Lado is explaining why dealers should control the game and give direction to players. I have to admit, some of the TDA Rules contradict logic...and the English language!

Somehow, if this continues, we will resort to action only and eliminate all verbal bets! Just do it!

Players need to make their intentions clear, and as long as our rules, (even the simple ones) need to be translated, or differ from card room to card room, these issues will never go away.

There's no rule that says a dealer should or should not announce how much is required to call, however, when a good dealer is in control of the game, it's a beautiful experience to watch.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 08:03:47 AM by Nick C »

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2021, 11:35:34 AM »
Nobody is changing the English language.

Itís simply that there is room for ambiguity, and without clarifying terminology it can be interpreted two ways. Therefore, a rule was created.

If you donít like the rule, you can argue your point at the next TDA meeting.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2021, 03:24:57 AM »
I've been to a TDA meeting in 2011. I don't understand why it is necessary to attend a meeting held in Las Vegas every 2 years in order to voice an opinion. I'm sure there are many members across the world who have much to offer to the Forum. Who wouldn't want to go to Las Vegas? I even lived there for nearly 20 years! However, it is not always practical or possible for all of us to attend. That's why we have this Forum.

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2021, 01:01:25 PM »
Yeah, Iím sorry about that comment.

It just struck me as odd that you were suggesting a rule change like that.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2021, 06:17:52 AM »
Dave,
 
I have no problem with anything you have to say. You have always contributed great insight into our discussions. Whenever I see a question that goes back and forth with page after page of questions and debates, I know there is something that absolutely needs to be addressed.

I believe I can explain raise rules for limit poker in a way that everyone will understand exactly how they apply. Take a look back through the years on this forum and you will see that tens of thousands of posts all pertain to raise rules for no-limit poker.
 Of the thousands of TDA members, less than 5% actually participate in the discussions. Do you really think that the non-participants are silent because they agree with the written rules? I doubt it.

Rules need to be simplified. When dealers and players understand the rules that's when a good dealer takes control of the action. How can dealers do their job when so much confusion exists?

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2021, 08:13:50 AM »
Thanks.

But the more I think about it, the more I can see both sides of this argument. But a lot of it has to deal with interpretation. And rules are designed to be black and white without need for interpretation.

What I mean is, suppose a player says raise, and then thereís a pause before he says the amount. I would always rule that as the amount being the total. On the other hand, if the player says raise and put in chips for a call and then specified an amount, it seems likely that the amount is the raise. The longer the pause, the more likely that the amount is the raise.

I donít know. I think Iím overthinking this.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2021, 06:48:14 PM »
I don't know if it's overthinking. Let's bring the dealer back into this situation. If I'm dealing and a bet is made and the next player says "raise"...I will freeze any further action until the raise amount is determined.

 When a player bets 4000 and the next player says, "raise 4000"...or "4000 more"Is it a raise to at least 8000? or is it a call?
 If I'm dealing and that happens, I want to clarify the action, especially when I know the intent was to raise the bet to 8000. If the dealer stops the next reaction there should be no confusion. This is the perfect time to tell the raiser that the next time he makes an unclear raise, he may not like the ruling.

Remember, it is also a TDA rule for players to make their intentions clear.

I haven't read Roberts Rules in a while but I do not recall any raise rule that would follow our TDA rule. Albert bets 100...Bonnie raises 200...my logic says the total bet for the next player to call is 300.
That is not what the TDA rule says. To my way of thinking, it's no different than Albert bets 100...Bonnie says 100 more...the total is 200...it can't be 100. Too much confusion.

It is nice to start seeing a little action brewing once in a while. This pandemic has taken it's toll on all of us.

Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2021, 06:30:11 AM »
Nick -

My response to your two examples is gonna sound like nit picking. Sorry. And it's a long post.

Note that I'm ignoring short all-in raises for these examples.

For the record, I am not against changing the rule, except that it seems to be a well known established rule. As such, it probably shouldn't be changed. Also note that the rule is about ambiguous statements. Using the word "To" or "More" makes things clearer - but not entirely clear as you'll see in my own examples.

BTW, I checked Robert's Rules and couldn't find anything that applies.

Mind you, I deal in a pub league where some players are very sharp and some have no clue. But I gotta treat them the same so that they are prepared for when they go to a poker room. I.E. The clueless can at least get a clue, while the sharp player learns how to play against the clueless since poker rooms also have clueless players. And some clueless dealers, but that's another story. Some of the players call me the Rules Guru. Some call me the Rules Nazi. Whatever.



In your first example: A player bets 4,000 and the next player says "Raise 4,000".

A minimum raise is for 4,000 more, so the fact that the raise was ambiguous is irrelevant.

A better example would be if he said "Raise 6,000". TDA rules say that it's a raise TO 6,000, which is less than a minimum raise, so he'd be forced to put in 8,000, even though he probably intended to raise it to 10,000.

It's very hard to not agree that he did intend to raise to 10,000.

But would you apply that same logic if he had said "Raise 16,000" while putting in a four 5K chips? Did he mean additional or total? Would you make it 20,000 total or 16,000 total?

The case could be made that if the original player asks if it's more or total, that the raiser gets a read and changes his intention. That invites angle-shooting.


In your second example: Albert bets 100, Bonnie raises 200. "Raises" is a word that is used when describing the action after it has occurred. I.E. It's the kind of word someone might use when describing the situation to a floor person, but not a word a player will use when acting. And, as you suggest, it implies the 'more' amount.

If I were the dealer talking to the floor, I would say, "Albert bet 100, Bonnie said 'Raise 200', what's the total bet?" As a floor person, I would say the total is 200.

Again, allowing a player to make an argument that influences the decision invites angle-shooting.



Last is my own two part example: Blinds are 200/400. Albert is SB for 200. Bob is BB for 400. Charlie raises to 800. Dave reraises to 2000. It's back to Albert who removes his 200 and puts in two 5K chips while saying "Raise, 6000".

Is the total bet: 6000, 6200, 6400, 6800 or 8000?

Same situation, but he leaves his 200 out there and says "Raise, 6000 more". Or he says something I've seen small blinds do far too often, say "Raise, 6000 on top".

On top of what? The small blind they left out there? Is the total bet: 6200, 6400, 6800 or 8000?

I've seen players make arguments for all the different totals that I suggest.

Note: The answers for my examples are 6000 and 8000.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2021, 02:18:25 PM »
I appreciate all of the time that you put into your reply. My simple answer to you is this: Before the TDA came up with this rule, I never had a problem with raises. A raise is an increase in a prior wager. A player either pushes out the total amount of his intended wager, or he will be accused of making a 'string" bet, which we all know is not allowed, or the improper raise is corrected before the action continues. That's it.
The TDA could have easily said that when a bet is 200 and the next player says raise 600...the total bet will be 800 and not 600. This is where the problem originated. A 600 raise should not be the total amount. It is what it is and I don't imagine it will change, but I don't like it and it's certainly worthy of debate. Why? Because it creates an unintentional raise amount.