Questions about verbal raises

[chet]

Hey Nick!!

You got it right!!!

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet...None of the usual suspects retaliated yet, and it's been over 24 hours! You might be right.
I wouldn't bet on it though.

[Guillaume Gleize]

So ... Let's try to conclude by some simple examples:

Someone bets 2000 ... Then next player before pushing anything goes:

1) "Raise 8000!" ---> Total 8000!

2) "Raise ... your 2000 ... plus 8000!" ---> total 10000! (because "raise" and 2 steps)

3) "Raise ... plus 8000!" ---> ? (I would say total 8000 because no 2 steps)

4) "Your 2000 plus 8000!" ---> ? (I would say 8000 because no "raise")

5) "Plus 8000!" ---> ? (I would say 8000 because no "raise" and no 2 steps)

... 

[Nick C]

Guillaume,

Stick with #1) Raise 8,000.... Total 8,000. This is what the TDA wants.

                #2) Is too much like a "string" Raise.  If you said "Raise 8,000 more" or "Raise... make it 10,000" in my opinion that would be acceptable. In order to understand what a string bet, or string raise is, you need to focus on avoiding two separate actions, verbal or otherwise. You can't say: "Here's your 2,000 and I'll Raise you 8,000 more." Players will always look to your original 2,000 as the accepted bet.

                #3) In my opinion saying "Raise, plus 8,000!"  could go either way.
     
                #4)  Another "string raise," you would most likely be held to a 2,000 call. Saying "your 2,000 plus 8,000 is looked at as two separate actions.
I realize this must be quite confusing but try to focus on the proper methods for raising and you'll have a better understanding of what is acceptable universally. Either announce the total amount of your bet and raise, or push the "total" desired amount forward in one motion. Example: Player bets 2,000 next Player says "raise" 10,000...that will be the total bet+raise amount, (per TDA Rules) Or; Player bets 2,000 next Player pushes 10,000 forward in one motion.

Others will have comments, I'm sure, so you can wait for their replies or send Mike Bishop a personal message and maybe he can better explain this to you, one on one.

I'm adding this after noticing #5. I guess saying Plus 8,000 would at least guarantee a raise to a total of 8,000. I don't remember hearing the word "Plus" used the way you are using it, but this is where my initial argument comes from. By definition "Plus" means in addition to...so saying "plus" could cause confusion. Hope you understand what I'm saying.

[Guillaume Gleize]

Arg with much respect Nick I will wait for more answer because even if you are a happy pro in your card room, so many time you are the opposite opinion of the majority LOL! And as I use to say: "I don't wanna apply rules I like, I wanna apply rules the MAJORITY like!"

And that's why I'm part of the TDA!

PS: To be said:
2) Was strictly on the TDA rules as a total amount ruled (or I'm lost again)!
4) Is actually not a good example because too close from a string bet I agree!

GG

[Nick C]

Guillaume,

I understand, no problem. That's why I suggested you contact Mike B. I know you're having difficulty fully understanding all of these rules. You are a good floorperson and you want to get it right, 100% all of the time.

You are absolutely correct when you said I have the opposite opinion of the majority. I disagree more than most, because I've been around more than most. Therefore I have a more difficult time with "change" in rules, or change in general. I realize that the game has evolved, but I also feel that if a change in an "old rule" is made, it should be an improvement...and very often, it is not!

[Guillaume Gleize]

To be said: I don't like 30% of the rule I apply! (shhhhhht) ... But I'm a unionist ... so ...
When in a TDA meeting (live or online) to speak about new rules, I will try to have my favorite rule be the official ... But if the majority wins against me, I'll apply their rule! That's the price to pay to clear the mess and to propose a good looking game of poker to our customer-players and to the public!