Author Topic: Questions about verbal raises  (Read 17114 times)

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2016, 03:05:25 PM »
Dave, Who said anything about asking for confirmation? You don't agree with Websters Dictionary's definition of raise when pertaining to poker...and neither does the TDA!

 When a Player bets 2,000 and the next player wants to raise to 8,000...I'd rather hear them say "make it 8,000" instead of "raise 8,000."
Simple enough.

At least we're getting some activity on the forum. ;D

MikeB

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2016, 09:18:50 PM »
To understand the TDA rule on this point, you should look first at the central point here: "Declaring raise and an amount constitutes the total bet".

For example: "Raise... ten thousand" means a total bet of ten thousand, i.e. it's tantamount to saying "make it ten thousand". That's what the rule clarifies.  Raise... ten thousand" does not mean "ten thousand more".

The second point is that players are encouraged to think of their raise in that way and verbalize it as such: "Raise... ten thousand total".

Now if you as TD see or hear other information that clarifies the bet as indeed ten thousand more you can rule it as such. But in the absence of that information, the bet is ten thousand.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 10:58:48 PM by MikeB »

Steff0111

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2016, 11:26:13 PM »
Steff0111, How could you not recognize Player B's statement as a raise of 6000?   Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?

...

Because there is no clarifying information from the raiser. So the total amount of the raise is what he said. Thatīs not possible, so itīs a min raise.

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2016, 05:54:44 AM »
Dave, Who said anything about asking for confirmation?

YOU !!!

... Why not just wait until we have clarification from the raiser before the next player acts?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 05:57:50 AM by Dave Miller »
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Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2016, 10:44:14 AM »
Dave,

 I used "clarification" not "confirmation" By definition clarification: to make clear or easier to understand.

Mike, thanks for your response. I fully understand what the rule implies...it's just another TDA rule that needs more work. I will never be a fan of any rule, that alters the obvious intended amount of any raise.

 One more situation. Player A bets 2,000...Player B says "Raise" pushes 2,000 forward and then says "8,000" while pushing 8,000 more forward. Is his total bet 8,000 (per TDA) or 10,000?

We used to always wait until we knew what the raise amount was. Now it's changed.

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2016, 11:32:33 AM »
Dave,

 I used "clarification" not "confirmation" By definition clarification: to make clear or easier to understand.
Really? Now you're gonna play the semantics card?

Just how do you get a clarification without a confirmation?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

MikeB

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2016, 11:38:53 AM »
Dave,

 I used "clarification" not "confirmation" By definition clarification: to make clear or easier to understand.

Mike, thanks for your response. I fully understand what the rule implies...it's just another TDA rule that needs more work. I will never be a fan of any rule, that alters the obvious intended amount of any raise.

 One more situation. Player A bets 2,000...Player B says "Raise" pushes 2,000 forward and then says "8,000" while pushing 8,000 more forward. Is his total bet 8,000 (per TDA) or 10,000?

We used to always wait until we knew what the raise amount was. Now it's changed.
These are all situational, and I'm not going to take the bait of an endless argument about a very simple rule which I've already opined on. Nothing's changed, "Raise... ten thousand" by itself has long been considered by many to mean a total bet of 10,000. The TDA just put that into writing.

In your situation, if the guy says "eight thousand" THEN pushes out the 8k I'm tending to make it 8k total, not 10k total because I want a declared amount, in the absence of anything else, to be the total bet. If he pushes the chips out simultaneously with the declaration I'll probably let the chips do the talking and make it 10k total. If he pushes the 8k in chips out first, it's obviously 10k total.

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2016, 11:56:39 AM »
Okay, Mike...thanks. We just have to educate the players, so they understand. When you say raise and an amount, that is the total bet. ::)

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2016, 12:02:31 PM »
Dave,

 Semantics? All I did was correct your mistake about me using a word that I didn't use. We disagree, a lot...so you can continue to force players to raise an unintentional amount, and I'll make sure that the player gets the correct, intended raise out before the next player screws up the whole betting round by not waiting his turn! ;D

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2016, 03:15:02 PM »
Nick -

OK. But when the bet is 2,000 and the next player puts out 10,000 while saying "Raise 8,000", how do you know if he's intending to make a total bet of 8,000 or 10,000 without asking?

How do you get your clarification?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 03:18:44 PM by Dave Miller »
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Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2016, 03:49:47 PM »
Dave,
 I know what your trying to say, but your example is clearly a total raise of 8,000 which makes the bet + raise a total of 10,000. This was the whole point of my original post. Why must we always have to question the intent of any player making a raise? You "freeze" the action and ask the raiser...simple.

 Dave, I know it appears as if I'm challenging every reply you make...this is not true. I would be thrilled if you agreed with me because I respect your position and your opinion.

  I'm only trying to make life easier for those of you that face these situations every day..I am retired and want nothing more than pass my many years of experience on to you. I don't know who made this ruling, or why the decision was made that the spoken amount would be the total raise when a bet, followed by a raise should be an addition of the mentioned amount.

 I understand Mikes reply, and I clearly understand what the TDA Rule demands...I just don't like it because there is no "clarification" on the intended total amount.

 I have no problem with anything you've posted because the current rule supports everything you've said. In my opinion, it needs to be fixed.

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2016, 08:20:30 PM »
 Nick, I agree with you too, but for different reasons.

As I said before, 2000 bet followed by "raise 8000" with two 5K chips put in, makes it easy to assume that's a 10,000 total bet. I occasionally have to stop myself from making that assumption.

Frankly, that ruling can go either way. But the way it's written, that's a bet of 8000 total. End of story.

But what about my example that doesn't encourage mental math: What if it was a 2000 bet with "raise 6000" and those same two 5K chips. How much change will he get?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2016, 08:23:59 PM »
You "freeze" the action and ask the raiser...simple.
Maybe I'm wrong, but in my judgment that woukd be a string bet.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2016, 09:09:00 PM »
Dave,
 There certainly is enough confusion to cover a great number of situations we've described. There is a very common accepted action in no limit when a player wants to raise...Player A bets 2,000...Player B says "Raise" without a "push" of the amount, we generally wait for either a verbal announcement or chips to be pushed forward. I know of no rule that prevents this stall. When the raiser announces his amount (whether you consider his verbal bet the total, or the amount of the raise) it is still not a string raise.

 The TDA rule could have just as easily made the spoken amount the actual size of the raise...but they decided to go the other way. :(

You asked: What if it was a 2000 bet with "raise 6000" and those same two 5K chips. How much change will he get? You and the TDA would (and should) call it a 6,000 total and give 400 change. My thoughts would consider his announcement of "raise 6,000" as a total of 8,000, giving him 200 change.

 I'll tell you what. Why not ask a bunch of your players what they mean if a player bets 2000 and someone raised them 6000? See what they say. If your players are fine with the rule the way you and the TDA explain it, then by all means stick with it. I started this topic because it's been misunderstood ever since the first raise was made back in the wild west!

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2016, 05:32:58 PM »
Guillaume,

 Your first two examples are correct, Your third example would not be acceptable because it too closely resembles a "string raise"  I might be wrong (again) but if you said Raise 7,000 more, I believe that would be acceptable. Announcing that you are calling the 3,000 and then raising 7,000 more would not be good.

 I guess we'll wait for the TDA experts.