PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Nick C on September 12, 2016, 08:40:05 AM
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Player bets 2000 next player says "raise 8000 more." How can we not allow the raise to total 10,000?" I know I'm going back to some old school but, that's the way it always was. There are too many technicalities involved whenever verbal raises are less than perfect.
In TDA #43 Raise Amounts B) Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Example A opens for 2000. B declares, "Raise 8000." The total bet is 8000. I guess my question is: Would adding the word "more," as I did in the original sentence, qualify as "clarifying information"?
Likewise in TDA #42 Methods Of Raising....Verbally declaring "raise" prior to pushing out the exact call amount then completing the raise in one additional motion. This of course is the best way without question. What if the raiser says "Raise" pushes out the call amount, and then says "8000 more"? I would prefer looking to TDA #38 Acting In Turn B)....A says "Raise" (but no amount), and B quickly folds. B should wait until A's Raise amount is clear.
In my opinion, Whenever a player is obviously raising, the total amount should be clarified before the next player reacts. Not allowing a player the opportunity to raise the intended amount is not in the best interest of the game.
Back to my original question: How many would not allow player B to raise 8000 more?
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Me!!!
The word "more" is absolutely, positively as much clarification as is needed. End of discussion, get on to the next player.
Absent the word "more" or something similar, that is not ambiguous, then the Total Bet is 8000.
Chet
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Me!!!
The word "more" is absolutely, positively as much clarification as is needed. End of discussion, get on to the next player.
Absent the word "more" or something similar, that is not ambiguous, then the Total Bet is 8000.
Chet
Agreed. I think the word "more" is the definition of "more clarification". Just as long as it's said all together. You can't say "Raise 8000"...wait a second...then say More".
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I don't know if I'm following either of you. If a player bets 2000 and another player raises 8000 the total bet should be 10000. That's all I'm saying...yet the rule says differently.
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I don't know if I'm following either of you. If a player bets 2000 and another player raises 8000 the total bet should be 10000. That's all I'm saying...yet the rule says differently.
Maybe this will clear it up:
If player says "raise 8,000," it is understood to mean "raise to 8,000" not "raise of 8,000."
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Thanks Dave...but my argument defends the statement as a raise of 8000 and not a raise of 6000 bringing the total to 8000. Why not just wait until we have clarification from the raiser before the next player acts? That's all...if you raise 8000 you raise 8000 not TO 8000. Pretty simple if you ask me.
If a player bet 5000 and you raised 5000...how much would the total bet be? Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 5000"
would you allow the total bet to be the intended 10000 or what?????
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The total bet must be the 10000!
"Raise 5000" is per definition "raise to 5000".
Thatīs not possible, but the verbal declaration "raise" is binding.
So, he has to min raise the prior bet to 10000.
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Steff0111,
Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?
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Looking back I will apologize to Chet and GreggPath...after reading their responses, I realize that they actually agreed with me! ;D
I think.
Where's Mike B?
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Steff0111,
Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?
Without the word "more"? No, I donīt.
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Thanks Dave...but my argument defends the statement as a raise of 8000 and not a raise of 6000 bringing the total to 8000. Why not just wait until we have clarification ... ?
Because that would be a string bet.
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I think part of the problem is the numbers involved and the simple mental math they invoke.
"Raise 8,000" after a bet of 2,000 (particularly if it's accompanied by pushing in two 5K chips), naturally makes you think 10,000.
But what if two 5K chips were accompanied by the phrase "Raise 9,000". What then? Would the player get 1,000 change, or be required to put in 1,000 more?
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To all,
Whether you agree or disagree, you should be able to understand how easy it is to get confused whenever a player announces his bet, as opposed to just pushing the intended amount forward. I've experienced statements that would indicate the intent to raise...without saying "raise" first! i.e. Adam bets 500 Bill says "make it 1000!" Acceptable? Or not?
Dave, you said "But what if two 5K chips were accompanied by the phrase "Raise 9,000" then what? The fact that he pushed the two 5K chips forward before his announcement of Raise "9,000" might not allow him to retract 1000. His bet must be 10,000.
All I'm trying to do is find a way for us to clarify some of the common statements from raisers without discouraging them from saying anything. Whenever a player pushes chips forward, without a verbal reply, we can all determine exactly what the raise must be. The problem is: speaking while raising, unless it is absolutely clear.
My original question: Wouldn't it be better if we, stopped the action until the exact intended amount from the raiser is determined, before allowing the next player to respond? I've read rules that insist that a skipped player has a right to defend his turn to act. Why not apply the same consideration here? A player "must" have a "right" to defend his turn to act in a raise situation.
Dave, I can look no further than your own statement when you wrote: "Raise 8000 after a bet of 2,000 (particularly if it's accompanied by pushing in two 5K chips), naturally makes you think 10,000." Yet the current rule makes the total bet and raise 8,000!? ??? Needs some work, that's all...I rest my case...for now. :D
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Steff0111, How could you not recognize Player B's statement as a raise of 6000? Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?
Dave, How do you get a string bet out of "Raise, 8000" ??? :o
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Dave, you said "But what if two 5K chips were accompanied by the phrase "Raise 9,000" then what? The fact that he pushed the two 5K chips forward before his announcement of Raise "9,000" might not allow him to retract 1000. His bet must be 10,000.
"before"? When did I say that? I said "accompanied by". IE, The chips went in at the same time as the announced raise.
Dave, I can look no further than your own statement when you wrote: "Raise 8000 after a bet of 2,000 (particularly if it's accompanied by pushing in two 5K chips), naturally makes you think 10,000." Yet the current rule makes the total bet and raise 8,000!? ??? Needs some work, that's all...I rest my case...for now. :D
Thats why I added my 9,000 example. It is an odd amount which does not invoke mental math.
Dave, How do you get a string bet out of "Raise, 8000" ??? :o
By asking for a clarification, you're giving the player a chance to change the bet. Ok, it's not a big change, but it's still a string bet.
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Dave, Who said anything about asking for confirmation? You don't agree with Websters Dictionary's definition of raise when pertaining to poker...and neither does the TDA!
When a Player bets 2,000 and the next player wants to raise to 8,000...I'd rather hear them say "make it 8,000" instead of "raise 8,000."
Simple enough.
At least we're getting some activity on the forum. ;D
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To understand the TDA rule on this point, you should look first at the central point here: "Declaring raise and an amount constitutes the total bet".
For example: "Raise... ten thousand" means a total bet of ten thousand, i.e. it's tantamount to saying "make it ten thousand". That's what the rule clarifies. Raise... ten thousand" does not mean "ten thousand more".
The second point is that players are encouraged to think of their raise in that way and verbalize it as such: "Raise... ten thousand total".
Now if you as TD see or hear other information that clarifies the bet as indeed ten thousand more you can rule it as such. But in the absence of that information, the bet is ten thousand.
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Steff0111, How could you not recognize Player B's statement as a raise of 6000? Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?
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Because there is no clarifying information from the raiser. So the total amount of the raise is what he said. Thatīs not possible, so itīs a min raise.
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Dave, Who said anything about asking for confirmation?
YOU !!!
... Why not just wait until we have clarification from the raiser before the next player acts?
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Dave,
I used "clarification" not "confirmation" By definition clarification: to make clear or easier to understand.
Mike, thanks for your response. I fully understand what the rule implies...it's just another TDA rule that needs more work. I will never be a fan of any rule, that alters the obvious intended amount of any raise.
One more situation. Player A bets 2,000...Player B says "Raise" pushes 2,000 forward and then says "8,000" while pushing 8,000 more forward. Is his total bet 8,000 (per TDA) or 10,000?
We used to always wait until we knew what the raise amount was. Now it's changed.
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Dave,
I used "clarification" not "confirmation" By definition clarification: to make clear or easier to understand.
Really? Now you're gonna play the semantics card?
Just how do you get a clarification without a confirmation?
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Dave,
I used "clarification" not "confirmation" By definition clarification: to make clear or easier to understand.
Mike, thanks for your response. I fully understand what the rule implies...it's just another TDA rule that needs more work. I will never be a fan of any rule, that alters the obvious intended amount of any raise.
One more situation. Player A bets 2,000...Player B says "Raise" pushes 2,000 forward and then says "8,000" while pushing 8,000 more forward. Is his total bet 8,000 (per TDA) or 10,000?
We used to always wait until we knew what the raise amount was. Now it's changed.
These are all situational, and I'm not going to take the bait of an endless argument about a very simple rule which I've already opined on. Nothing's changed, "Raise... ten thousand" by itself has long been considered by many to mean a total bet of 10,000. The TDA just put that into writing.
In your situation, if the guy says "eight thousand" THEN pushes out the 8k I'm tending to make it 8k total, not 10k total because I want a declared amount, in the absence of anything else, to be the total bet. If he pushes the chips out simultaneously with the declaration I'll probably let the chips do the talking and make it 10k total. If he pushes the 8k in chips out first, it's obviously 10k total.
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Okay, Mike...thanks. We just have to educate the players, so they understand. When you say raise and an amount, that is the total bet. ::)
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Dave,
Semantics? All I did was correct your mistake about me using a word that I didn't use. We disagree, a lot...so you can continue to force players to raise an unintentional amount, and I'll make sure that the player gets the correct, intended raise out before the next player screws up the whole betting round by not waiting his turn! ;D
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Nick -
OK. But when the bet is 2,000 and the next player puts out 10,000 while saying "Raise 8,000", how do you know if he's intending to make a total bet of 8,000 or 10,000 without asking?
How do you get your clarification?
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Dave,
I know what your trying to say, but your example is clearly a total raise of 8,000 which makes the bet + raise a total of 10,000. This was the whole point of my original post. Why must we always have to question the intent of any player making a raise? You "freeze" the action and ask the raiser...simple.
Dave, I know it appears as if I'm challenging every reply you make...this is not true. I would be thrilled if you agreed with me because I respect your position and your opinion.
I'm only trying to make life easier for those of you that face these situations every day..I am retired and want nothing more than pass my many years of experience on to you. I don't know who made this ruling, or why the decision was made that the spoken amount would be the total raise when a bet, followed by a raise should be an addition of the mentioned amount.
I understand Mikes reply, and I clearly understand what the TDA Rule demands...I just don't like it because there is no "clarification" on the intended total amount.
I have no problem with anything you've posted because the current rule supports everything you've said. In my opinion, it needs to be fixed.
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Nick, I agree with you too, but for different reasons.
As I said before, 2000 bet followed by "raise 8000" with two 5K chips put in, makes it easy to assume that's a 10,000 total bet. I occasionally have to stop myself from making that assumption.
Frankly, that ruling can go either way. But the way it's written, that's a bet of 8000 total. End of story.
But what about my example that doesn't encourage mental math: What if it was a 2000 bet with "raise 6000" and those same two 5K chips. How much change will he get?
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You "freeze" the action and ask the raiser...simple.
Maybe I'm wrong, but in my judgment that woukd be a string bet.
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Dave,
There certainly is enough confusion to cover a great number of situations we've described. There is a very common accepted action in no limit when a player wants to raise...Player A bets 2,000...Player B says "Raise" without a "push" of the amount, we generally wait for either a verbal announcement or chips to be pushed forward. I know of no rule that prevents this stall. When the raiser announces his amount (whether you consider his verbal bet the total, or the amount of the raise) it is still not a string raise.
The TDA rule could have just as easily made the spoken amount the actual size of the raise...but they decided to go the other way. :(
You asked: What if it was a 2000 bet with "raise 6000" and those same two 5K chips. How much change will he get? You and the TDA would (and should) call it a 6,000 total and give 400 change. My thoughts would consider his announcement of "raise 6,000" as a total of 8,000, giving him 200 change.
I'll tell you what. Why not ask a bunch of your players what they mean if a player bets 2000 and someone raised them 6000? See what they say. If your players are fine with the rule the way you and the TDA explain it, then by all means stick with it. I started this topic because it's been misunderstood ever since the first raise was made back in the wild west!
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Guillaume,
Your first two examples are correct, Your third example would not be acceptable because it too closely resembles a "string raise" I might be wrong (again) but if you said Raise 7,000 more, I believe that would be acceptable. Announcing that you are calling the 3,000 and then raising 7,000 more would not be good.
I guess we'll wait for the TDA experts.
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Hey Nick!!
You got it right!!!
Chet
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Chet...None of the usual suspects retaliated yet, and it's been over 24 hours! You might be right. ;D
I wouldn't bet on it though. :D
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So ... Let's try to conclude by some simple examples:
Someone bets 2000 ... Then next player before pushing anything goes:
1) "Raise 8000!" ---> Total 8000!
2) "Raise ... your 2000 ... plus 8000!" ---> total 10000! (because "raise" and 2 steps)
3) "Raise ... plus 8000!" ---> ? (I would say total 8000 because no 2 steps)
4) "Your 2000 plus 8000!" ---> ? (I would say 8000 because no "raise")
5) "Plus 8000!" ---> ? (I would say 8000 because no "raise" and no 2 steps)
... ??? ::) :P :-\ :'(
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Guillaume,
Stick with #1) Raise 8,000.... Total 8,000. This is what the TDA wants.
#2) Is too much like a "string" Raise. If you said "Raise 8,000 more" or "Raise... make it 10,000" in my opinion that would be acceptable. In order to understand what a string bet, or string raise is, you need to focus on avoiding two separate actions, verbal or otherwise. You can't say: "Here's your 2,000 and I'll Raise you 8,000 more." Players will always look to your original 2,000 as the accepted bet.
#3) In my opinion saying "Raise, plus 8,000!" could go either way.
#4) Another "string raise," you would most likely be held to a 2,000 call. Saying "your 2,000 plus 8,000 is looked at as two separate actions.
I realize this must be quite confusing but try to focus on the proper methods for raising and you'll have a better understanding of what is acceptable universally. Either announce the total amount of your bet and raise, or push the "total" desired amount forward in one motion. Example: Player bets 2,000 next Player says "raise" 10,000...that will be the total bet+raise amount, (per TDA Rules) Or; Player bets 2,000 next Player pushes 10,000 forward in one motion.
Others will have comments, I'm sure, so you can wait for their replies or send Mike Bishop a personal message and maybe he can better explain this to you, one on one.
I'm adding this after noticing #5. I guess saying Plus 8,000 would at least guarantee a raise to a total of 8,000. I don't remember hearing the word "Plus" used the way you are using it, but this is where my initial argument comes from. By definition "Plus" means in addition to...so saying "plus" could cause confusion. Hope you understand what I'm saying.
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Arg with much respect Nick I will wait for more answer because even if you are a happy pro in your card room, so many time you are the opposite opinion of the majority LOL! And as I use to say: "I don't wanna apply rules I like, I wanna apply rules the MAJORITY like!"
And that's why I'm part of the TDA!
PS: To be said:
2) Was strictly on the TDA rules as a total amount ruled (or I'm lost again)!
4) Is actually not a good example because too close from a string bet I agree!
GG
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Guillaume,
I understand, no problem. That's why I suggested you contact Mike B. I know you're having difficulty fully understanding all of these rules. You are a good floorperson and you want to get it right, 100% all of the time.
You are absolutely correct when you said I have the opposite opinion of the majority. I disagree more than most, because I've been around more than most. Therefore I have a more difficult time with "change" in rules, or change in general. I realize that the game has evolved, but I also feel that if a change in an "old rule" is made, it should be an improvement...and very often, it is not!
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To be said: I don't like 30% of the rule I apply! (shhhhhht) ... But I'm a unionist ... so ...
When in a TDA meeting (live or online) to speak about new rules, I will try to have my favorite rule be the official ... But if the majority wins against me, I'll apply their rule! That's the price to pay to clear the mess and to propose a good looking game of poker to our customer-players and to the public!
8)