Author Topic: Questions about verbal raises  (Read 16859 times)

Nick C

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Questions about verbal raises
« on: September 12, 2016, 08:40:05 AM »
 Player bets 2000 next player says "raise 8000 more." How can we not allow the raise to total 10,000?" I know I'm going back to some old school but, that's the way it always was. There are too many technicalities involved whenever verbal raises are less than perfect.

 In TDA #43 Raise Amounts B) Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Example A opens for 2000. B declares, "Raise 8000." The total bet is 8000. I guess my question is: Would adding the word "more," as I did in the original sentence, qualify as "clarifying information"?

 Likewise in TDA #42 Methods Of Raising....Verbally declaring "raise" prior to pushing out the exact call amount then completing the raise in one additional motion. This of course is the best way without question. What if the raiser says "Raise" pushes out the call amount, and then says "8000 more"? I would prefer looking to TDA #38 Acting In Turn B)....A says "Raise" (but no amount), and B quickly folds. B should wait until A's Raise amount is clear.

 In my opinion, Whenever a player is obviously raising, the total amount should be clarified before the next player reacts. Not allowing a player the opportunity to raise the intended amount is not in the best interest of the game.

 Back to my original question: How many would not allow player B to raise 8000 more?


chet

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 03:51:02 PM »
Me!!!

The word "more" is absolutely, positively as much clarification as is needed. End of discussion, get on to the next player.

Absent the word "more" or something similar, that is not ambiguous, then the Total Bet is 8000.

Chet

GreggPath

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 04:18:14 PM »
Me!!!

The word "more" is absolutely, positively as much clarification as is needed. End of discussion, get on to the next player.

Absent the word "more" or something similar, that is not ambiguous, then the Total Bet is 8000.

Chet

Agreed. I think the word "more" is the definition of "more clarification". Just as long as it's said all together. You can't say "Raise 8000"...wait a second...then say More".

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 04:57:11 PM »
I don't know if I'm following either of you. If a player bets 2000 and another player raises 8000 the total bet should be 10000. That's all I'm saying...yet the rule says differently.

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 06:47:55 PM »
I don't know if I'm following either of you. If a player bets 2000 and another player raises 8000 the total bet should be 10000. That's all I'm saying...yet the rule says differently.
Maybe this will clear it up:

 If player says "raise 8,000," it is understood to mean "raise to 8,000" not "raise of 8,000."
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 07:23:48 PM »
Thanks Dave...but my argument defends the statement as a raise of 8000 and not a raise of 6000 bringing the total to 8000. Why not just wait until we have clarification from the raiser before the next player acts? That's all...if you raise 8000 you raise 8000 not TO 8000. Pretty simple if you ask me.

 If a player bet 5000 and you raised 5000...how much would the total bet be? Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 5000"
would you allow the total bet to be the intended 10000 or what?????

Steff0111

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2016, 06:07:24 AM »
The total bet must be the 10000!
"Raise 5000" is per definition "raise to 5000".
Thatīs not possible, but the verbal declaration "raise" is binding.
So,  he has to min raise the prior bet to 10000.

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 07:48:23 AM »
Steff0111,

 Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 01:59:27 PM »
Looking back I will apologize to Chet and GreggPath...after reading their responses, I realize that they actually agreed with me! ;D
I think.
Where's Mike B?

Steff0111

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 10:44:38 PM »
Steff0111,

 Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?

Without the word "more"? No, I donīt.

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2016, 08:16:20 AM »
Thanks Dave...but my argument defends the statement as a raise of 8000 and not a raise of 6000 bringing the total to 8000. Why not just wait until we have clarification ... ?
Because that would be a string bet.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2016, 08:25:36 AM »
I think part of the problem is the numbers involved and the simple mental math they invoke.

"Raise 8,000" after a bet of 2,000 (particularly if it's accompanied by pushing in two 5K chips), naturally makes you think 10,000.

But what if two 5K chips were accompanied by the phrase "Raise 9,000". What then? Would the player get 1,000 change, or be required to put in 1,000 more?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2016, 10:10:53 AM »
To all,

 Whether you agree or disagree, you should be able to understand how easy it is to get confused whenever a player announces his bet, as opposed to just pushing the intended amount forward. I've experienced statements that would indicate the intent to raise...without saying "raise" first! i.e. Adam bets 500 Bill says "make it 1000!" Acceptable? Or not?

Dave, you said "But what if two 5K chips were accompanied by the phrase "Raise 9,000" then what? The fact that he pushed the two 5K chips forward before his announcement of Raise "9,000" might not allow him to retract 1000. His bet must be 10,000.

 All I'm trying to do is find a way for us to clarify some of the common statements from raisers without discouraging them from saying anything. Whenever a player pushes chips forward, without a verbal reply, we can all determine exactly what the raise must be. The problem is: speaking while raising, unless it is absolutely clear.

 My original question: Wouldn't it be better if we, stopped the action until the exact intended amount from the raiser is determined, before allowing the next player to respond? I've read rules that insist that a skipped player has a right to defend his turn to act. Why not apply  the same consideration here? A player "must" have a "right" to defend his turn to act in a raise situation.

 Dave, I can look no further than your own statement when you wrote: "Raise 8000 after a bet of 2,000 (particularly if it's accompanied by pushing in two 5K chips), naturally makes you think 10,000." Yet the current rule makes the total bet and raise 8,000!? ??? Needs some work, that's all...I rest my case...for now. :D

Nick C

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2016, 10:18:54 AM »
Steff0111, How could you not recognize Player B's statement as a raise of 6000?   Player A bets 5000 Player B says "Raise 6000"...do you allow the (intended Raise) to be the total wager 11000?


Dave, How do you get a string bet out of "Raise, 8000" ??? :o


Dave Miller

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Re: Questions about verbal raises
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2016, 12:54:53 PM »
Dave, you said "But what if two 5K chips were accompanied by the phrase "Raise 9,000" then what? The fact that he pushed the two 5K chips forward before his announcement of Raise "9,000" might not allow him to retract 1000. His bet must be 10,000.
"before"? When did I say that? I said "accompanied by". IE, The chips went in at the same time as the announced raise.


Quote
Dave, I can look no further than your own statement when you wrote: "Raise 8000 after a bet of 2,000 (particularly if it's accompanied by pushing in two 5K chips), naturally makes you think 10,000." Yet the current rule makes the total bet and raise 8,000!? ??? Needs some work, that's all...I rest my case...for now. :D
Thats why I added my 9,000 example. It is an odd amount which does not invoke mental math.


Dave, How do you get a string bet out of "Raise, 8000" ??? :o
By asking for a clarification, you're giving the player a chance to change the bet. Ok, it's not a big change, but it's still a string bet.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 12:56:21 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?