Author Topic: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal  (Read 2239 times)

Nick C

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TDA Rule #16 Face Up For All-Ins.
Why do the TDA rules insist that all cards be tabled simultaneously at showdown when any player is all-in? Dealer training...101 states that the side pots are to be awarded in the reverse order that they are created. Example. The last side pot created by the players with the most chips at the start of the hand will be contesting the last side pot created...so why would we want to see any other players cards who was all-in with less, possibly on an earlier betting round? I already looked at the addendum. I see no logical reason.

Steff0111

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Perhaps to avoid mucking the cards when a better hand is shown?!

Nick C

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Steff0111
 Yes, Steff...that is exactly my point. If an opposing player has gone all-in and you and another player are still betting, a side-pot will be created. At the showdown, the dealer will ask to see the hands of the players contesting the side pot first...correct? After the side pot winner is determined, the all-in player will reveal his or her hand. The TDA rule, as written, may cause the winner of the side pot to muck his hand if the all-in player happens to have a better hand.
The TDA Rule #16 goes against logic as far as I can tell. I'm just wondering why? I understand that all cards must be shown whenever there is an all-in player, however, I believe the rule should be rewritten as not to create the possibility of the rightful winner of any side pot to prematurely muck their hand.

BillM16

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I understand that all cards must be shown whenever there is an all-in player, however, I believe the rule should be rewritten as not to create the possibility of the rightful winner of any side pot to prematurely muck their hand.

2019 TDA RULE #16: Face Up for All-Ins
All hands will be tabled without delay once a player is all-in and all betting action by all other players in the hand is complete. No player who is either all-in or has called all betting action may muck his or her hand without tabling. All hands in both the main and side pot(s) must be tabled and are live. See Illustration Addendum.

2019 TDA RULE #13 Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.


Clearly, the rule is written so that a winning hand cannot be killed by an errant player or an improperly trained dealer.  Awarding pots in the correct order is another matter not covered by any TDA Rule or Recommended Procedure.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 08:47:29 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Thank you, Bill...I understand the procedure but the rule can only cause confusion. It goes against every showdown procedure for all-ins that I've ever heard of or taught or learned when I went to poker dealing school many years ago. This TDA rule can only create a situation that could induce a winning hand to be mucked by mistake. Make a rule that demands the all-in can never muck and MUST show his or her hand..however, it should be shown when the pot they are contesting is being decided. That is the only way that makes any sense at all.

MikeB

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The explanation is this...

When a "tournament life" is on the line, all players in the event have an interest in the outcome of the hand. We want to make sure:

A. That the all-in hand is tabled so that if it truly wins, it is not mucked by mistake and the player knocked out of the event.

B. That all competing hands are also tabled so that a hand that might beat the all-in hand is not mucked in error. Also that no collusion occurs where a better hand is deliberately mucked so the all-in can remain in the event.

Regarding a side pot, consider this situation: 2 hands are competing for the side pot, Player A tables trips and Player B mistakenly mucks a flush face down. Then for the main pot, Player C tables a straight and beats Player A's trips. However, if all hands were required to be tabled, Player C would be knocked out by B's flush.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 10:41:33 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Mike
I don't understand. The old method is by far the best. All called hands or all players in for all bets should show their hands. An all-in player with the best hand is more likely to induce other players to toss their lesser hand, forgetting that the best hand has no right to the side pot. That is why the all-in players should wait until the pot they are contesting is being decided. They can not muck! They must table...but not along with other players who have more chips invested in the pot. A good dealer will instruct the all-in player or players to hold their cards until the side pots are awarded. Besides, why so much concern for the all-in player? Shouldn't all players be assured that the rightful winner is awarded the pot on every tournament hand? Why so much concern ONLY when there is an all-in player in a pot? I remember when a well-known player mucked a winning flush while in for all bets. The result...the wrong player got the chips and went on to knock players out of the tournament with those extra chips he should not have had. Sorry, it makes no sense to me. Cash games are different. If a player wants to give his chips away...let him. If I'm competing in a tournament, I want the rightful winner of the pot to get the chips!

BillM16

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The best way for a properly trained dealer to ensure that all required hands are tabled is to immediately do so following the end of all betting action.  Otherwise, players with un-tabled hands have a opportunity to muck while the errant dealer is distributing pots.  Once the hand or hands are in the muck there is no proper recourse.  Dealers MUST make sure that all hands are tabled first. 

The incorrect dealer procedure of revealing only hands while settling each side-pot creates the fatal delay that gives players an opportunity to muck.  Dealers trained in this bad practice cannot guarantee that players will hold onto their cards until it is their turn to compete for the correct side-pot.  That is asking way to much of the dealer and the player.

Clearly tabling all hands immediately is the only way to accomplish the desired objectives.  Players and dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand.  The sooner they are tabled the less likely that they will be mucked in error or with nefarious intent.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 07:24:31 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Bill...I've been dealing and training dealers for over 40 years and what you are describing is incorrect! You tell the players what to do. You control the game, not the players. Any player that rifles his cards into the muck should not be playing in the game.

BillM16

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Bill...I've been dealing and training dealers for over 40 years and what you are describing is incorrect! You tell the players what to do. You control the game, not the players. Any player that rifles his cards into the muck should not be playing in the game.

Not all dealers or trainers are created equally.  What I have described is the correct procedure according to the TDA and the supporting members around the world.  I have also explained why your way is incorrect.  Doing it wrong for 40 years doesn't make it right. 

To be fair, the TDA hasn't been around that long.  Here is a version that is only 9 years old:


2011 TDA RULE:   11. Face Up for All-Ins.

All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action for the hand is complete. The dealer & players should insist on timely compliance with this rule.


In your OP, you ask why the TDA rule doesn't support the way that you are training dealers.  We have given you reasonable answers which have been supported for over 9 years.  If you want to train dealers that follow TDA you'll need to change your training or get the TDA to change the rule.  Either way, good luck.




« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 08:04:46 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Bill,

 I'm not doing it wrong. The TDA was created 20 years ago. I defy you, or anyone to find a showdown rule that before the TDA created one, that insists that all players must "undress" and expose their hands simultaneously. It contradicts all the proper procedure rules that I've ever seen. If that rule is anywhere prior to the TDA creation of it...I'd like to see it.
Instead of "quoting" the written TDA rule, why not play out the scenario of a typical showdown with an all-in player? As far as an all-in player mucking their hand without showing it...It would never happen with a well-trained dealer sitting in the box! If you'd care to discuss this further you can contact me by phone or email. I'd really like to debate this one further. The risk of side pot winners prematurely mucking their hands is far more likely to occur with the current TDA rule. There is no doubt in my mind.

Nick C

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Here are a few old links on this subject: There are others but these should keep you occupied.

https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=122.0


https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=556.0
ROBERTS RULES……SHOWDOWN
7. If there is a side pot, the winner of that pot should be decided before the main pot is awarded. If there are multiple side pots, they are decided and awarded by having the pot with the players starting the deal with the greatest number of chips settled first, and so forth.

8. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there are one or more side pots (because someone is all-in), players are asked to aid in determining the pot winner by not showing their cards until a pot they are in is being settled. A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot. However, the other players do not lose the right to request the hand be shown if he does so

I will ask this question again. In TDA Rule #12 why is a non-all-in showdown specifically mentioned? Does that not indicate that it would be different if there were no all-in?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 04:41:

BillM16

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Here are a few old links on this subject: There are others but these should keep you occupied.

Those only prove that you have consistently argued against the official TDA procedure.  You are entitled to your opinion.  I see no value in debating the matter.  Both sides have been thoroughly discussed. One procedure is correct according to the TDA and the other is your opinion. Some venues have their own rules and some agree with your opinion.  Dealers at TDA tables who follow your method will be corrected by the official TDA ruling.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 08:22:31 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Bill...Does what Bob Ciaffone say mean anything? I'll post it again. I understand it's a cash game but the procedure works best...In my opinion and Bob's, too.
ROBERTS RULES……SHOWDOWN
7. If there is a side pot, the winner of that pot should be decided before the main pot is awarded. If there are multiple side pots, they are decided and awarded by having the pot with the players starting the deal with the greatest number of chips settled first, and so forth.


 I like that you mentioned that I am consistently arguing against some TDA rules, as you put it. That's one of the purposes of the discussion forum. I will also add, that many of my suggestions have influenced changes in the rules...for the better!

Nick C

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Not trying to "beat a dead horse" but for those of you that think this is something new here's one that I dug up from 9 years ago:
https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=497.0