PokerTDA
TDA POKER TOURNAMENT RULES & RECOMMENDED PROCEDURES => Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version => Topic started by: Nick C on February 06, 2020, 06:02:35 PM
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TDA Rule #16 Face Up For All-Ins.
Why do the TDA rules insist that all cards be tabled simultaneously at showdown when any player is all-in? Dealer training...101 states that the side pots are to be awarded in the reverse order that they are created. Example. The last side pot created by the players with the most chips at the start of the hand will be contesting the last side pot created...so why would we want to see any other players cards who was all-in with less, possibly on an earlier betting round? I already looked at the addendum. I see no logical reason.
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Perhaps to avoid mucking the cards when a better hand is shown?!
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Steff0111
Yes, Steff...that is exactly my point. If an opposing player has gone all-in and you and another player are still betting, a side-pot will be created. At the showdown, the dealer will ask to see the hands of the players contesting the side pot first...correct? After the side pot winner is determined, the all-in player will reveal his or her hand. The TDA rule, as written, may cause the winner of the side pot to muck his hand if the all-in player happens to have a better hand.
The TDA Rule #16 goes against logic as far as I can tell. I'm just wondering why? I understand that all cards must be shown whenever there is an all-in player, however, I believe the rule should be rewritten as not to create the possibility of the rightful winner of any side pot to prematurely muck their hand.
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I understand that all cards must be shown whenever there is an all-in player, however, I believe the rule should be rewritten as not to create the possibility of the rightful winner of any side pot to prematurely muck their hand.
2019 TDA RULE #16: Face Up for All-Ins
All hands will be tabled without delay once a player is all-in and all betting action by all other players in the hand is complete. No player who is either all-in or has called all betting action may muck his or her hand without tabling. All hands in both the main and side pot(s) must be tabled and are live. See Illustration Addendum.
2019 TDA RULE #13 Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.
Clearly, the rule is written so that a winning hand cannot be killed by an errant player or an improperly trained dealer. Awarding pots in the correct order is another matter not covered by any TDA Rule or Recommended Procedure.
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Thank you, Bill...I understand the procedure but the rule can only cause confusion. It goes against every showdown procedure for all-ins that I've ever heard of or taught or learned when I went to poker dealing school many years ago. This TDA rule can only create a situation that could induce a winning hand to be mucked by mistake. Make a rule that demands the all-in can never muck and MUST show his or her hand..however, it should be shown when the pot they are contesting is being decided. That is the only way that makes any sense at all.
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The explanation is this...
When a "tournament life" is on the line, all players in the event have an interest in the outcome of the hand. We want to make sure:
A. That the all-in hand is tabled so that if it truly wins, it is not mucked by mistake and the player knocked out of the event.
B. That all competing hands are also tabled so that a hand that might beat the all-in hand is not mucked in error. Also that no collusion occurs where a better hand is deliberately mucked so the all-in can remain in the event.
Regarding a side pot, consider this situation: 2 hands are competing for the side pot, Player A tables trips and Player B mistakenly mucks a flush face down. Then for the main pot, Player C tables a straight and beats Player A's trips. However, if all hands were required to be tabled, Player C would be knocked out by B's flush.
Hope this helps.
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Mike
I don't understand. The old method is by far the best. All called hands or all players in for all bets should show their hands. An all-in player with the best hand is more likely to induce other players to toss their lesser hand, forgetting that the best hand has no right to the side pot. That is why the all-in players should wait until the pot they are contesting is being decided. They can not muck! They must table...but not along with other players who have more chips invested in the pot. A good dealer will instruct the all-in player or players to hold their cards until the side pots are awarded. Besides, why so much concern for the all-in player? Shouldn't all players be assured that the rightful winner is awarded the pot on every tournament hand? Why so much concern ONLY when there is an all-in player in a pot? I remember when a well-known player mucked a winning flush while in for all bets. The result...the wrong player got the chips and went on to knock players out of the tournament with those extra chips he should not have had. Sorry, it makes no sense to me. Cash games are different. If a player wants to give his chips away...let him. If I'm competing in a tournament, I want the rightful winner of the pot to get the chips!
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The best way for a properly trained dealer to ensure that all required hands are tabled is to immediately do so following the end of all betting action. Otherwise, players with un-tabled hands have a opportunity to muck while the errant dealer is distributing pots. Once the hand or hands are in the muck there is no proper recourse. Dealers MUST make sure that all hands are tabled first.
The incorrect dealer procedure of revealing only hands while settling each side-pot creates the fatal delay that gives players an opportunity to muck. Dealers trained in this bad practice cannot guarantee that players will hold onto their cards until it is their turn to compete for the correct side-pot. That is asking way to much of the dealer and the player.
Clearly tabling all hands immediately is the only way to accomplish the desired objectives. Players and dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand. The sooner they are tabled the less likely that they will be mucked in error or with nefarious intent.
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Bill...I've been dealing and training dealers for over 40 years and what you are describing is incorrect! You tell the players what to do. You control the game, not the players. Any player that rifles his cards into the muck should not be playing in the game.
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Bill...I've been dealing and training dealers for over 40 years and what you are describing is incorrect! You tell the players what to do. You control the game, not the players. Any player that rifles his cards into the muck should not be playing in the game.
Not all dealers or trainers are created equally. What I have described is the correct procedure according to the TDA and the supporting members around the world. I have also explained why your way is incorrect. Doing it wrong for 40 years doesn't make it right.
To be fair, the TDA hasn't been around that long. Here is a version that is only 9 years old:
2011 TDA RULE: 11. Face Up for All-Ins.
All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action for the hand is complete. The dealer & players should insist on timely compliance with this rule.
In your OP, you ask why the TDA rule doesn't support the way that you are training dealers. We have given you reasonable answers which have been supported for over 9 years. If you want to train dealers that follow TDA you'll need to change your training or get the TDA to change the rule. Either way, good luck.
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Bill,
I'm not doing it wrong. The TDA was created 20 years ago. I defy you, or anyone to find a showdown rule that before the TDA created one, that insists that all players must "undress" and expose their hands simultaneously. It contradicts all the proper procedure rules that I've ever seen. If that rule is anywhere prior to the TDA creation of it...I'd like to see it.
Instead of "quoting" the written TDA rule, why not play out the scenario of a typical showdown with an all-in player? As far as an all-in player mucking their hand without showing it...It would never happen with a well-trained dealer sitting in the box! If you'd care to discuss this further you can contact me by phone or email. I'd really like to debate this one further. The risk of side pot winners prematurely mucking their hands is far more likely to occur with the current TDA rule. There is no doubt in my mind.
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Here are a few old links on this subject: There are others but these should keep you occupied.
https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=122.0
https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=556.0
ROBERTS RULES……SHOWDOWN
7. If there is a side pot, the winner of that pot should be decided before the main pot is awarded. If there are multiple side pots, they are decided and awarded by having the pot with the players starting the deal with the greatest number of chips settled first, and so forth.
8. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there are one or more side pots (because someone is all-in), players are asked to aid in determining the pot winner by not showing their cards until a pot they are in is being settled. A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot. However, the other players do not lose the right to request the hand be shown if he does so
I will ask this question again. In TDA Rule #12 why is a non-all-in showdown specifically mentioned? Does that not indicate that it would be different if there were no all-in?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 04:41:
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Here are a few old links on this subject: There are others but these should keep you occupied.
Those only prove that you have consistently argued against the official TDA procedure. You are entitled to your opinion. I see no value in debating the matter. Both sides have been thoroughly discussed. One procedure is correct according to the TDA and the other is your opinion. Some venues have their own rules and some agree with your opinion. Dealers at TDA tables who follow your method will be corrected by the official TDA ruling.
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Bill...Does what Bob Ciaffone say mean anything? I'll post it again. I understand it's a cash game but the procedure works best...In my opinion and Bob's, too.
ROBERTS RULES……SHOWDOWN
7. If there is a side pot, the winner of that pot should be decided before the main pot is awarded. If there are multiple side pots, they are decided and awarded by having the pot with the players starting the deal with the greatest number of chips settled first, and so forth.
I like that you mentioned that I am consistently arguing against some TDA rules, as you put it. That's one of the purposes of the discussion forum. I will also add, that many of my suggestions have influenced changes in the rules...for the better!
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Not trying to "beat a dead horse" but for those of you that think this is something new here's one that I dug up from 9 years ago:
https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=497.0
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But Bobs 7. rule says nothing about tableing cards.
It´s just about the order to award the pots.
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Steff,
Really? Side pots are awarded in the reverse order that they are created. Can you agree with that? The main pot that the all-in player is contesting is decided last. You can handle it any way you'd like, but I can assure you the first time a side-pot winner prematurely mucks because they see a hand that has theirs beat you will remember Robert's Rules. Thanks for keeping this alive! :)
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But Bobs 7. rule says nothing about tableing cards.
It´s just about the order to award the pots.
You are correct Steff.
According to TDA Rules, when there is an all-in player and all betting action is complete, the first obligation is to table all cards of all players remaining in the hand. Once the hands have been tabled, the dealer can award the pots as described in RRoP. For each pot, the dealer mucks the losing hands and awards the winning hands. The dealer cannot muck a winning hand that was properly tabled.
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Bill,
I know how to read and I understand what the TDA rule states. Is it okay if I don't agree with it? I'd really like to see you in action with the TDA method when there are three or four side pots. Leave it the way it is...it's perfect!
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Hey guys,
I'm digging this up because I don't understand how you made a such simple thing so complex.
3 players All-in, Main Pot & Side pot built in a identifiable way, no more action.
Dealer : "Showdown, all hands please"
All cards tabled
Dealer : "For the side pot, Player 1 wins with 3 of a kind, for the Main pot, Player 2 wins with straight 9 high"
Dealer mucks losing hand.
Dealer awards the side pot then mucks the hand
Dealer awards the main pot then mucks the hand
Wash, Riffle
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Hi, Boris
I believe the face up for all in's is specifically intended for players going all-in on an early street. Post flop, two players...Player A goes all-in Player B calls. Both players' cards should be tabled before the deal continues.
Yes, your answer would work if it were that simple. I don't want to rehash what's been covered over and over again...but I will. ;) The correct way to decide the winner at showdown is to decide the last side-pot created first. Why show any cards that have nothing to do with the pot they are not competing for? Eventually, all cards must be tabled.
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Hey Nick,
I understand the need of clarification while all hands are tabled but it is the dealer's job to identify which hand/player qualifies for each pot and this whatever the street is when action is over.
We do this in every possible game even in Omaha 6 cards. So yes it can be confusing for the dealer at start, but that's why dealers need to understand the game they are dealing.
The example I gave suits the side pot awards order and complies with TDA regulations.
I remember the times when PokerStars were doing table tests to enter the EPT Team. As dealer you had to identify a winning Texas Hold'em hand between 6 tabled hands while you were dealing and building the pots with the pressure of not being able to join the team if you fail =)
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Boris
I agree that a dealer should be in control and they must know who has the best hand for each pot. I was a dealer for many years and an instructor as well. My simple reasoning for showdown rules, whenever there are one or more side pots, is this. There are too many instances when players are not paying attention that they release their hand into the muck when they see a hand exposed that has them beat. It's like a knee-jerk reaction. I've actually had multiple players muck when they shouldn't have because the side pot winner had them beat. I don't know how else to explain it. Can you give me one good reason why you need to see the all-in players hand before seeing the side pot winners? If the all-in can't beat the side pot, he or she can't win anyway! I'm done with this topic. I've been trying to reason with this rule for about 10 years. I will continue to train new dealers the right way until someone can convince me otherwise. If your reasoning is to be certain that the all-in can't surrender his hand without showing it, that's fine. However, it should be shown after the side pots have been awarded.
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Having the rule does a couple things.
1 - When there is any question or hesitation, a dealer can correctly state that every hand must be exposed. It's much simpler than saying, OK, you two first, etc., and avoids the accidental muck problem.
2 - Even when everyone is prompted to show, there are slight delays. During that delay, a side-pot player might see an all-in player's better hand and fold their hand, even though they might have won the side pot. Because of the rule, the dealer can correctly try to prevent the folded cards from mixing with the muck pile and becoming unidentifiable.
3 - If mucked cards do become unidentifiable, and the player then complains about it, the floor person can say "That's why you should follow the dealer's instructions / know the rules."
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Having the rule does a couple things.
While I agree with what Dave said in 1, 2, & 3, lets not forget the All-In aspect of this rule. As Mike B. said earlier:
The explanation is this...
When a "tournament life" is on the line, all players in the event have an interest in the outcome of the hand. We want to make sure:
A. That the all-in hand is tabled so that if it truly wins, it is not mucked by mistake and the player knocked out of the event.
B. That all competing hands are also tabled so that a hand that might beat the all-in hand is not mucked in error. Also that no collusion occurs where a better hand is deliberately mucked so the all-in can remain in the event.
Regarding a side pot, consider this situation: 2 hands are competing for the side pot, Player A tables trips and Player B mistakenly mucks a flush face down. Then for the main pot, Player C tables a straight and beats Player A's trips. However, if all hands were required to be tabled, Player C would be knocked out by B's flush.
Hope this helps.
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I'm afraid this issue will never be resolved. I will paste David Millers example
2 - Even when everyone is prompted to show, there are slight delays. During that delay, a side-pot player might see an all-in player's better hand and fold their hand, even though they might have won the side pot. Because of the rule, the dealer can correctly try to prevent the folded cards from mixing with the muck pile and becoming unidentifiable.
If you hold off on exposing the hand that's not contesting that side pot, the problem you speak of can never happen! I'm done with this subject. I've been doing it my way for 60 years and nobody ever conceded their winning hand to an all-in player not contesting a side pot they didn't pay to compete in. It's very easy for any dealer to prevent an all-in player from prematurely mucking...They can't...they have to show.
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Does this make anything clearer? I understand the procedure but the rule can only cause confusion. It goes against every showdown procedure for all-ins that I've ever heard of, or taught, or learned when I went to poker dealing school many years ago. This TDA rule can only create a situation that could induce a player, holding a winning side pot hand, to muck by mistake. Make a rule that demands the all-in must always show their hand to preserve the integrity of the game...however, it should be shown when the pot they are contesting is being decided. That is the only way that makes any sense at all.
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If you hold off on exposing the hand that's not contesting that side pot, the problem you speak of can never happen!
This statement is obviously false. It is also the most important point of the rule. The crux of the rule is really quite simple: A hand that is properly tabled cannot be killed if it is a winner. So, table all hands at showdown when there is an all-in player. Those hands cannot be killed when they are a winner of any part of the pot.
The exact opposite of the above quoted statement occurs. Any hand that is not properly tabled can easily be discarded by a player or errant dealer. It is blatantly false to declare it can never happen. To the contrary, it does happen and often enough that a majority of voting TDA members around the world have decided upon this very rule as a measure to prevent the undesirable consequences of errant dealers and players that muck winning hands that have not been properly tabled.
Of course, not all TDA members agree.
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If you play out all of the scenarios we have discussed you will have a better understanding of what I'm saying. I guess we will have to disagree on this one.
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I’m doing research on another rule and realized that this was left somewhat unresolved.
.2 - Even when everyone is prompted to show, there are slight delays. During that delay, a side-pot player might see an all-in player's better hand and fold their hand, even though they might have won the side pot. Because of the rule, the dealer can correctly try to prevent the folded cards from mixing with the muck pile and becoming unidentifiable.
Replace the bold words with ‘ANY player.’
It is quite possible that while evaluating the side pot hands, the main pot player forgets his hand or misreads the side pot winner’s hand, and muck. True, this only rarely happens, but is more common with inexperienced players.
Just show all the hands, and then start evaluating with the last side pot, etc.