Author Topic: request for count of unbet chips  (Read 9241 times)

cloudtiger

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request for count of unbet chips
« on: February 02, 2012, 10:45:45 AM »
2 players in a hand. on the flop player A bets 3000, player B asks him "how much do you have". player A says nothing just pushes his chip stack slightly forward to give player B a clear view of his stack ( which is in neat, countable stacks). player B then asks the dealer for a count of player A's remaining chips. is the dealer obliged to count the remaining chips?
rule 21 states Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean stacks in multiples of 20 as a standard. Players must keep their higher denomination chips visible and identifiable at all times.
in my view ( i may be wrong ) the dealer should not be obliged to count the remaining chips
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 11:17:35 AM by cloudtiger »

Luca P.

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 11:22:25 AM »
Well, it's not a obligation, more a courtesy.
The procedure I usually reccomend to my dealers is:
1) let the player count each other stacks
2) if player asks how much is the bet, then I let the dealer arrange the chips in another way they could be count easly
3) if still player refuse to count and ask in a kind manner the dealer to count for him, then the dealer count the chips of the bet, not the remaining stack

#EDIT
I had a discussion with another collegue.
We came to the conclusion that the dealer could count the bet, not the stack. If the player refuses to count, it's up to him, the dealer should call the floor and the floor should explain the rule to the player and in some occasion assess a light penlity
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 11:53:27 AM by Linker_Split »
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K-Lo

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 01:23:58 PM »
Player B is entitled to, on player B's turn, a count of the wager made by Player A (i.e. the 3000 in this example). 

Chips that are not yet in the pot (behind), however, should not be counted by the Dealer.  The Dealer can ask that Player A arrange his chips "behind" into clearly visible, countable stacks if they are not already so arranged (e.g. same denomination chips stacked together, and in multiples of 20), but neither Player A nor the Dealer has any further obligation to provide a count of those chips behind.  Poker is a visual game.  If all of the chips behind are in plain view and in countable stacks, it is Player B's responsibility to correctly assess what Player A has remaining.   

With respect, I do not think it is a violation of courtesy or etiquette to refuse to give a verbal count of chips behind.  If I, as a player, have already made the effort to put my chips into a neatly countable form and am not hiding chips, why should I be penalized if my opponent then wants a count but is too lazy or unable to count it himself?

DCJ001

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 02:00:24 PM »
K-Lo is exactly correct.

Counting or estimating another player's stack is part of the game that should require the assistance of no one, assuming that the chips are neatly stacked with the larger denominations in plain sight.

This is similar to a player's responsibility of keeping track of the size of the pot in No Limit Hold 'em. In this game, dealer's should not assist players in keeping track of the size of the pot, or other players' stacks.

K-Lo

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 02:20:59 PM »
Counting or estimating another player's stack is part of the game that should require the assistance of no one, assuming that the chips are neatly stacked with the larger denominations in plain sight.

This is similar to a player's responsibility of keeping track of the size of the pot in No Limit Hold 'em. In this game, dealer's should not assist players in keeping track of the size of the pot, or other players' stacks.

+1  Agreed.

cloudtiger

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 05:34:04 PM »
k-lo and dcj001, i agree entirely with your assessment of the situation. thank you both for taking the time to reply.

linker split you said "I had a discussion with another collegue.
We came to the conclusion that the dealer could count the bet, not the stack. If the player refuses to count, it's up to him, the dealer should call the floor and the floor should explain the rule to the player and in some occasion assess a light penlity "
why would you penalise a player who had his chips in neat countable stacks?






« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 05:45:35 PM by cloudtiger »

Nick C

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 06:12:19 PM »
Gentlemen:
 We could go round-and-round all day on this one. If I'm playing in a game and I make a wager, why would I not want the opponent to know how much I bet? What about the rule that states the player should make his intentions clear? I don't agree with assessing a penalty either but I do agree with everything else that took place on Linker_Split's discussion with his colleague. Call the floor and let them explain the tournament rules. I agree the dealer should not count the bettors remaining stack but I don't like the Accepted Action Rule introduced at the last Summit.

 The way the current rules are, it is pointless to ask anything about even the amount that is wagered (forget the player's remaining chips), because if the player or dealer tells you the wrong amount, you still have to correct it to what it is ::)
 

DCJ001

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 07:01:05 PM »
Nick C wrote:
Quote
The way the current rules are, it is pointless to ask anything about even the amount that is wagered (forget the player's remaining chips), because if the player or dealer tells you the wrong amount, you still have to correct it to what it is

This statement makes no sense.

Players are not allowed to touch another player's bet or raise.

If a player asks a dealer for the amount of a bet or raise, the dealer should count the bet for the player in such a way that the player may count the bet or raise along with the dealer. If a player makes a bet or raise in one tall stack, or in a pile of chips that is not organized, players should pay attention to the way that dealers organize the bet or raise and ensure that the dealer's count matches his own count of the chips.

cloudtiger

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 08:34:12 PM »
 nick c, i think you misunderstood. there is no confusion concerning the amount of the bet. the bet was 3000 and this was clearly understood by all parties. the only issue here is whether the dealer should count the remaining chips ( chips that have not been bet ) by player A. i believe the answers give by  dcj001 and k-lo deal more than adequately with this point

Luca P.

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 12:53:04 AM »
Maybe I made my self not clear :)
I said  "and in some occasion assess a light penlity" to the player who refuses to count the stack, not the one who put the stack countable
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cloudtiger

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 08:43:54 AM »
 thanks linker split for the clarification.
i dont think a player has any obligation to count out his remaining chip (i.e. unbet chips ). in the situation i outlined above players A's stack was in neat, countable stacks
in my view a player whose stack is not in neat, countable stacks should be told by the dealer to arrange his chips in such a way as to make it easy for other players to get a reasonable estimation of the amount of chips he has.
if a player refuses to do this, then the dealer should call the floor to deal with this situation
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 08:50:06 AM by cloudtiger »

chet

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 10:01:31 AM »
As an example, I believe Doyle Brunson stated on one TV show or another that he would never count his remaining stacks for another player, he would have his chips in proper stacks, but the player has to determine what he has left.

There is no requirement that a player count their remaining chips and to even think about assessing any type of penalty/warning to a player who refuses to do so is just plain wrong, provided the remaining chips are stacked and displayed properly.

mooredog

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 08:43:22 AM »
Searching the rules you'll find #21 allows for a reasonable estimate of stack size. In our room all in bets are counted only upon request by a player in the hand but we have never had a player stop a dealer from counting chips behind when asked. Even though #21 only allows for a reasonable estimate I see nowhere in the rules forbidding an actual count of the chips left in a players stack. If they are clearly in stacks of 20 it really should not be much of a problem for anyone to figure the total out so we do allow our dealers to count them. Are we wrong? Do they count the chips behind when asked at the WSOP or at WPT events?

DCJ001

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 09:58:31 AM »
Searching the rules you'll find #21 allows for a reasonable estimate of stack size. In our room all in bets are counted only upon request by a player in the hand but we have never had a player stop a dealer from counting chips behind when asked. Even though #21 only allows for a reasonable estimate I see nowhere in the rules forbidding an actual count of the chips left in a players stack. If they are clearly in stacks of 20 it really should not be much of a problem for anyone to figure the total out so we do allow our dealers to count them. Are we wrong? Do they count the chips behind when asked at the WSOP or at WPT events?

The reasonable estimation to which rule 21 refers has to do with players keeping their chips in stacks of 20 and higher denomination chips visible so that other players, not dealers, may obtain reasonable estimations. Dealers should not assist players in obtaining estimations of other players' chip stacks. Doing so would be in violation of "one player to a hand."

The rules do not say that dealers should not be counting players' stacks. But, then again, the rules do not say that dealers should not stand on their heads on the tables while dealing the cards. Just because the rules do not say that something should not be done doesn't mean that it should be done.

K-Lo

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Re: request for count of unbet chips
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 04:07:01 PM »
I would also add that Dealers shouldn't be reaching behind into players stacks anyways to touch those chips, for counting or otherwise.  Chips that have been wagered should be pushed forward by the player, and of course, since they are in the pot, they then become part of the dealer's domain and can be counted or otherwise handled.  But chips behind a player should generally be left alone, by both the players and the dealers, to minimize the risk of chips being stolen, swapped, added, etc.  Sometimes we may have to go into a stack to place an ante or blind for an absent player, but other than that, chips behind should be left alone.