Poll

Player X has less than a complete starting hand. How would you rule?

Dead Hand
1 (12.5%)
Give the player a card to give them a complete hand before the draw
4 (50%)
Allow the player to call and draw for a complete hand
3 (37.5%)
Misdeal and deal a new hand
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: July 04, 2013, 02:09:32 PM

Author Topic: Draw Game Rules  (Read 10378 times)

WSOPMcGee

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Draw Game Rules
« on: June 04, 2013, 02:09:33 PM »
Hi All,

Been a while but I'm back just in time before the summit!! (Hope I can make it). So here's a situation that happened recently at the WSOP. The game is 2-7 lowball.

8 handed game. Button is in seat 3. SB seat 4. BB seat 5. Seat 6 is sitting out. Seat 7 folds, Seat 8 calls, Seat 1 folds, Seat 2 calls, action is stopped because Seat 5 realizes he has 4 cards and not 5. You, the supervisor come over and verify that all other players were dealt complete hands and that no other player has less or more cards than a complete hand AND that no cards are on the floor or under the rail etc, etc.

Please vote how you would rule and then please explain why? I have found that most supervisors here at the WSOP are of one mind and I am the lone ranger. I ask them why and they say because "Rule X says" one of the answers listed in the poll. So then I present my case that "Rule Y says" another answer listed in the poll.

So doing the research that I do to found out "WHY" we rule things one way and not another way, I have yet to find ANYONE to give me a good argument against the ruling that was made. Also during this research I discovered another anomaly that "Rule Z says" it should have been ruled yet a different way and for the life of me I can't even imagine anyone today making such a ruling.

In discussing this with Dave Lamb, I expressed my concern for the argument against ruling in favor of "Rule Y" because it seems to me that most poker rules are enforced by assuming that everyone is a card cheat, an angle shooter, or just a dirtbag. I can see that argument being viable in a "Cash" game because there is immediate gratification and possible profitable return in a cash game. In Tournament though, which is my expertise, this is not the case. Any player trying to gain an angle must fade several players and floor staff rulings to make any profit at all. Cash profit. I'm not trying to diminish any chip equity that may be gained, but any that would be gained is extremely minimal, especially here at the WSOP. [STANDING ON SOAP BOX NOW] I don't like we as supervisors sometimes presume players to be guilty of angle shooting in an effort to enforce certain rules. I much prefer to presume the players are innocent and that a dealer simply make a mistake and try to correct errors when at all possible to try and keep action moving.[STEPPING OFF SOAP BOX].

This poll will be up for 30 days. I'll check back and give you my argument for "Rule Y" then. I was going to say something else, but I forgot. Haha.

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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 02:40:00 PM »
I remember what I was going to say now!

All of the polling answers are correct. The goal of the poll to try and determine which one is the best of all.
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Tristan

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 03:11:54 PM »
This is tough, because what I would rule is probably not what I would want to rule.

Without saying what I voted for, I'll lay out the reasoning for what I think are the top two options.

Dead hand - This is the way you would most likely rule it in a cash game and the more you differentiate between cash and tournament, the more confusion you run into with staff and players.  Also this option has the least perceived damage both in amount at risk and in the player's minds.  It is not often that you would have anyone really upset with this ruling.

Allow the player to get a card before the draw and complete the hand - You could argue that the card that player gets is out of order, but to be honest, a lot of cards were out of order in the initial deal depending on when the player was skipped.  The other advantages to this call are that the Seat 5 does not have to make a decision based only on 4 cards (penalized for no fault of their own), and all of the draw cards are in proper order as exactly 5 cards have been delivered to each player before the draw.  This leaves the hand the most intact it can be.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 08:14:17 AM by Tristan »
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chet

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 03:24:41 PM »
Thomas and Tristan:

I don't know much, probably less than any one else on this forum about lowball.  So you can take that into consideration, if you would.

I don't believe that you can call a misdeal, per TDA 32 because no matter how you look at the action it fits the TDA definition of "Substantial Action", so I cannot support option 4.

I also don't believe that it is "fair" to rule player 5's hand dead.  The problem was brought to the attention of the dealer before action went around the table, so I can easily see where player 5 stopped the action as soon as he noticed there was a problem.

So we are left with option 2 or 3.  Since there has been no further action other than 2 calls and players 3 and 4 have yet to act, I am inclined to let those two players act, call or raise or whatever.  When it comes back to seat 5 he can fold or call, if there has been a raise and get another card, or he can check if there has been no raise and get another card.  

I would require that he act based on the 4 cards in his hand, fold, check or call (I would not let him raise).  If he calls or checks then he gets the 5th card and the hand moves on from there.

Chet
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 07:31:59 PM by chet »

MikeB

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 10:36:25 PM »
Interesting case Thomas.

The best answer here is "it depends on the Lowball misdeal language in effect at this venue":

1: IF you're using RRoP-type lowball language, then IMO the best answer is to allow the player to continue with 4 cards and draw to a complete hand of 5 on the draw. Because substantial action has already occurred, I don't think it's proper to deal a player not on the button a 5th card before the draw (this would be an option if no action had yet occurred).

2: IF you're using generic substantial action and misdeal language (i.e. a hand is dead if it has an improper number of cards after S.A. has occured), then I think the best ruling is dead hand b/c SA has occurred (seat 7 folds and 8 calls).

In neither 1 or 2 does declaration of a misdeal seem right. It might be correct under non-TDA rules that don't put SA into effect until the initial betting action has gone around the table once (in order to "give every player a chance to look at their cards in turn").

Just taking a cursory look at WSOP lowball rules I don't see the distinctions listed in 1 above. In the absence of that specific language, I would tend to favor dead hand since SA has occured. What was the actual ruling made?

« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 10:58:32 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 06:40:38 AM »
Give the player a card so he has a complete hand before the draw. The card should be the top card of the deck.

Substantial action has taken place and the proper cards remain for the draw.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 12:34:10 PM by Nick C »

mooredog

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 10:44:50 AM »
Five card draw rules allow the player to have a live hand and draw to the full 5 cards when his turn to draw assuming there's been significant action. Misdeal if not, but not the case here. If he has the wrong number cards after a draw then his hand is dead.

K-Lo

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 12:07:24 PM »
In draw games, there is no problem with allowing the player to "use" one of his draws to top up his hand to the correct number.  The reason for ruling the hand dead in a non-draw game is to prevent a player from hiding a card and giving him a free second chance to gain a better card and to hold it. In a draw game, this is not an issue even if he hid a "bad" card as he must use one of his draws to replace it.  Allow to call and draw to the correct number of cards - count the deck at the end of the hand.

Tristan

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 12:19:54 PM »
It's looking more and more like I need to brush up on my draw rules!  ;D
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Nick C

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 12:50:50 PM »
I still like #2.

Mike, I have a question for you. What do you mean "generic substantial action?"  IF you're using generic substantial action and misdeal language (i.e. a hand is dead if it has an improper number of cards after S.A. has occured), then I think the best ruling is dead hand b/c SA has occurred.

I don't believe we ever established that a hand is dead when a player is bypassed by substantial action, unless the next round of betting, or the next street begins?

Ken, I haven't played draw in years but, I find it hard to believe that any player could get away with holding an extra card so he can have a one card advantage. If the extra card helps his hand, he still has a problem ditching the extra before the showdown. Plus, the original question indicates that the player was clearly short one card.

Tristan, don't let others change your mind! You had it down to 2 choices and (I know) you were close to deciding with me, but...

Chet, At least you eliminated #1 & #5. So you're in the ballpark.  ;D

Nick C

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 12:52:13 PM »
Thomas, You're not really going to keep us guessing til July! Are you?

K-Lo

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 02:14:04 PM »
Nick:  I am simply saying that the underlying reasons why we kill hands that do not have the right amount of cards in a game such as holdem after substantial action occurs do not apply to draw games in the same way. Killing a hand that is short (especially on the button which is common) in draw games pre-draw is overkill.

That being said, since there are likely very few TDs with extensive live draw game experience, I am willing to bet that most TDs would simply kill the hand and rely on the rule that they are most familiar with in the Holdem sphere.  And players are probably less likely to complain if they are primarily Holdem players.  Although killing the hand may be the most popular approach now, it is not necessarily the most principled IMO.

MikeB

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 03:13:11 PM »

Mike, I have a question for you. What do you mean "generic substantial action?"  IF you're using generic substantial action and misdeal language (i.e. a hand is dead if it has an improper number of cards after S.A. has occured), then I think the best ruling is dead hand b/c SA has occurred.

I don't believe we ever established that a hand is dead when a player is bypassed by substantial action, unless the next round of betting, or the next street begins?

You're right, that wasn't established (though it was proposed but didn't get enough votes). What was established is that if SA occurs, a misdeal can't be declared. If I'm using "generic" misdeal / SA rules (i.e. one standard for all game types), then the hand has an improper number of cards. After SA, you can't declare a misdeal so generically a hand with the improper number of cards is usually dead.

If the house uses lowball-specific rules which permit drawing to a full hand of 5, then I'd favor that. I just don't find it in a cursory scan of the WSOP rules.  Just because it doesn't appear verbatim in the house rules, BTW, doesn't mean a floor person can't rule to draw to 5 here, basing the ruling on "standard convention". The problem with having different standards for different games that are not in print is that you open yourself up to inconsistent rulings as not all staff are likely to be equally familiar with such a relatively obscure rule.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 03:18:02 PM by MikeB »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 04:16:10 PM »
Thomas, You're not really going to keep us guessing til July! Are you?

No... the poll, the poll will be available to vote for 30 days. Then it will close. I do like the thought provoking discussion going on though. I see some people clinging to the "norm" and some people trying to think of reasons why the "norm" is what it is.

So far the most interesting quote is from MikeB
Quote
The problem with having different standards for different games that are not in print is that you open yourself up to inconsistent rulings as not all staff are likely to be equally familiar with such a relatively obscure rule.

What MikeB said is truly the heart of the matter.

Keep the thoughts coming guys. We've barely scratched the surface here IMO.
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Nick C

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 08:26:34 PM »
Thomas,

  I believe every player has a right to begin with a complete hand. If the same player were skipped in the button position, he would have been given his fifth card...no problem.

Too many cards, (i.e. 6) would warrant a dead hand, not too few.

 I remember (long ago) replacing a card with the second card from the bottom of the deck when a player was skipped his "proper card." The idea, was to preserve the deck stub for the next round. Allowing the player to "draw-up" to his 5 card hand will alter "proper cards" to any player drawing cards.

This is why I chose #2.