Poll

Player X has less than a complete starting hand. How would you rule?

Dead Hand
1 (12.5%)
Give the player a card to give them a complete hand before the draw
4 (50%)
Allow the player to call and draw for a complete hand
3 (37.5%)
Misdeal and deal a new hand
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: July 04, 2013, 02:09:32 PM

Author Topic: Draw Game Rules  (Read 10361 times)

Tristan

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 11:39:45 AM »
I wrote what I did above based on my own thoughts on the subject and without looking up anything.

I have to say though, I still like the thought of giving that player a card prior to the draw.

I don't feel that the player that is innocently missing a card should be penalized by having to make a decision based on 4 cards.  Nick has a point by saying that if they were the button, they would have gotten another card with no questions asked.  Are we saying that the person on the button is more trustworthy and less likely to cheat than they are?  I also really like that the draw cards are intact.  If we give them the extra card during the draw, then the cards are out of order during the initial deal AND on the draws.  Two wrongs =/= right.  Obviously, use proper procedure during the draws and count the deck down at the end to make sure things were legit.

If it is discovered before substantial action happens, misdeal.

This is just my opinion on how things should be.  I would like to hear reasoning behind why they should be other ways.
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K-Lo

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2013, 08:03:26 PM »
With respect to holdem, suppose the dealer forgets to deal the button his second card.  The player does not say anything until everyone has folded to him.  Would you still give the player the card at the top of the deck, despite substantial action having occurred?  Does the player not have some obligation to protect his own hand by ensuring that he has the correct number of cards at the beginning of the deal and bringing it to the attention of the dealer?

If you are willing to give a player another card before the draw, then you should be just as willing to give any player who claims to have only been dealt one card, a second card anytime before the flop is dealt in Holdem.  I don't think this is right.  i think the player needs to check that he has both of his cards, and that his hand is not fouled for some reason, asap and most preferably before substantial action has occurred.

Not killing the hand at draw, and not automatically giving him a top up card for failing to draw attention to his hand being short a card, but allowing one to use up one of the draws to complete the hand on the first draw is a reasonable compromise.  The angle at draw does not necessarily have to be hiding a card to be brought out later - it can be as simple as the BB looking at one of the cards, and if he doesn't want it, he leaves it out to be mucked by UTG with the UTG hand. Even when not used as an angle, with so many cards dealt, it is easy for one player's card to be picked up with folded cards headed for the muck. #3 is a reasonable compromise, which allows the player to continue and eliminates the possibility of giving the angle-shooter a second chance at a better card.

But if everybody wanted to just treat holdem and draw games the same way to avoid having an exception that most TDS will not be able to remember, I suppose we gotta do what we gotta do.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 08:09:15 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2013, 05:25:42 AM »
Ken,

 I think there are many players that don't look at their cards until it is their turn to act. Therefore, I believe there is a difference from game to game. When a player is deprived of a complete starting hand, through no fault of their own, they should be given either the top card of the deck, or a randomly selected card from the bottom of the deck.

 There will always be other factors to consider, i.e. the player who says nothing and action passes him by.

 In case I haven't answered your first question, I will say that the player on the button is entitled to a card, at any time before the next round begins. The top card belongs to him.

 Players in other positions, not the button, create a situation that has altered the proper card distribution to others. The question becomes; what is the best way to correct this dealer error? I believe all players are entitled to a complete starting hand, substantial action, or not.

MikeB

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2013, 10:17:29 AM »
As a side story to this thread, I'd sure like to see lowball (and other non-board games) catch on. While I like playing holdem in public games and tournaments it's one of least favorite private games. I play at least as much NL 5 stud as THE in one private setting. It's an awesome game that was really the first of the great tournament formats (Moss vs. Dandolos). http://www.bluff.com/magazine/nick-the-greek-vs-johnny-moss-9890/ Benny Binion used the heads-up 5-stud tourney to attract attention to the Horseshoe even prior to hosting the WSOP there. Note that Moss and Dandolos also played lowball and 7-stud variations but no THE !  

Certainly when and if these overlooked games become more popular we absolutely should spell out their unique misdeal and other characteristics.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 02:55:37 PM by MikeB »

Tristan

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2013, 09:20:57 AM »
I don't think the games should be treated as the same.  With so many more cards dealt, it is much easier for a dealer error to occur.  In hold'em it is easy to determine that the next card off the deck belongs to the button.  But, in a draw game, can we really determine that it was the button's last card that was skipped and not their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?  And unless we are absolutely certain, how can we hold that player to a different standard than others?

I can also have a lot more sympathy for a player that doesn't notice a missing card in a 5 card game.   It's harder to watch the other players and look at all of your cards...plus it's 20% of your hand missing rather than 50%.  
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 09:42:29 AM by Tristan »
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Nick C

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2013, 01:31:24 PM »
Tristan,
 You bring up another interesting scenario; How do you handle a situation where a player notices that he was skipped his second card when the dealer is dealing the third card?  If the 3 seat player notices immediately the dealer can back up the card delivered to the 4 seat, (as long as it has not been mixed in with the players other hole cards).
 What about when the proper card can not be determined?

 I know how I would handle it, but I'd like to hear from others.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2013, 08:36:52 AM »
Interesting case Thomas.

 What was the actual ruling made?

So on this TDA morning here's the actual ruling made.

The player received a 5th card before the draw.

I'll go over all the possible rulings and why they are correct later today(ish).
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MikeB

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 10:01:41 PM »
Thomas, Thanks...

This IS the ruling I would have made if SA hadn't occurred. From my original post, if you're keeping close to very roots lowball rules I would prefer letting the guy play pre-draw with 4 because of the SA.

Which brings us to lowball-specific rules which I think most venues don't have anymore, unfortunately.

So, I think a reasonable person without a set of standing lowball-specific rules can get to the actual ruling here by using random card theory. We've accounted for all the cards, the fact is a 5th card was not dealt to this player. In that sense, filling him in before the draw then leaves you with a "correct" stub for dealing the draw cards, even if the pre-draw cards might be "out of order".

So then, we're at this technicality that it would be more traditional to play with 4 and draw to 5 due to the SA, the next closest thing I guess is to go ahead and deal him the 5th right now... and that ends up with the "cards in correct order" virtue for the draw.

BTW, just taking the pulse of people in and around the Summit this year, I feel that there aren't enough venues that care enough to adopt the minutiae of game-specific rules for game types that aren't played often enough to be financially lucrative (yet).

Thanks for sharing a very interesting case.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 01:01:12 AM by MikeB »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Draw Game Rules
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2013, 01:44:53 PM »
So today(ish) didn't happen. So it's tomorrow(ish).

Anyhow, going to try and cover each possible ruling individually and try to gauge any interest in adopting the above ruling for other game types, if at all possible.

Ruling #1 - Dead Hand: This ruling is possible given the obvious - Player in Seat 5 (BB) has an improper number of cards for the game type. Too few in this case. Standard rulings almost always follow the holdem / omaha type rulings governed by this rule: RRoP The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game but fail to include this exception in their rulings (except at stud a hand missing the final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live).

As MikeB stated, most cardrooms now do not even have these game types being played in their rooms. Therefore, it stands to reason that most would not know the exceptions for specific game types.

Pros of this ruling:
  • Cut and dry. Too few or too many cards for game type is a dead hand
  • Not a misdeal with Substantial action
  • Prevents players from hiding cards to receive a 2nd chance at a better card
Cons of this ruling:
  • This punishes the player who has an improper number of cards unduly because of a dealer error
  • Allows for the incorrect / proper flop and/or in this case an improper draw.
  • Is a misdeal without Substantial action
  • Players in the blinds lose the right to protect and player on the button loses position paid for through the blinds

Let's briefly discuss the exceptions to the rule: "except at stud a hand missing the final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live." Why is there an exception?

IN STUD - the reason for exception is a player with too few cards still may have a better hand then a player with 7 cards. Therefore it is allowed. Thoughts: I find this logic to be true in all game formats except for Draw games and Badugi. For example in Holdem - A player with only an Ace (one card - too few cards) in their hand may flop an Ace and beat a player with KK in their hand. However, in Holdem it is mandatory to have two cards to win a pot. Otherwise we'd just have people holding/hiding aces all the time. But in Omaha and Big O the Stud rule exception seems to hold water to me. A player with too few cards (i.e. 3 cards) should still be allowed to win the pot. It is possible for them to use two out of the 3 cards they do have and still beat a proper 4 card hand. I'll discuss this line of thought more in a separate post in Ruling #2

IN DRAW - the reason for exception is because a player may wish to draw to a full hand. If they have too few cards after the draw it is a dead hand.

The problem with exceptions is - then you may get into that there is an even exceptions for the exceptions! But overall I like exceptions if they make sense. And that's the main goal of creating and implementing rules, do they make sense. More to come.
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