Author Topic: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck  (Read 18107 times)

K-Lo

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Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« on: October 31, 2012, 09:26:31 AM »
I am basing this case on a fact scenario from another source, as I think it is worthy of discussion.

In general, if a player mucks his hand not realizing there is action still pending, and the cards are irretrievable, then Rule 48 will typically apply:  The hand will be dead, and any uncalled portion of the bet or raise may be returned to the player.

The question is - would you approach this situation differently if the hand were "folded" face-up?  The dealer mucked the cards (perhaps he too forget there was action still pending)...  since the cards are in this case clearly identifier, would you pull these cards out of the muck?  Or would you consider the hand dead once it has been mixed into the muck?


Nick C

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 10:27:03 AM »
K-Lo,

 Without knowing all of the particulars of the hand; l will assume it was the last betting round and a player or two still had to act.

To answer your question, it would depend on whether the player was in for all bets prior to mucking his hand. If he were facing a bet and mucked face-up, I would deem the hand dead and not retrievable. In any other situation, I can't conceive a situation where a player would muck, unless he thought he won the hand unopposed. In that case my decision could depend on a number of situations.
 

Tristan

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 12:22:45 PM »
Too many non-specifics, but I would say that this situation falls under Rule 1. 

If the player who folded was the bettor, and it was obvious that he/she didn't realize there was any action left, I don't see why you couldn't give back their clearly identifiable hand.

If they were not the bettor and were facing a bet, I would call it a muck.
Tristan
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JasperToo

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 03:33:18 PM »
If a player "folded" face up and, presuming the dealer wasn't paying proper attention, the hand got pulled to the muck, it is still identifiable and should be considered a tabled hand.  The hand would be live and action continues and the "folding" player gets a penalty for exposing his cards. 

All that is still only 2 cents!  No inflation here!

K-Lo

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 05:25:26 PM »
Sorry for being so incoherent in my original post... was running out the door.

The situation:  not a showdown.  Assume there is an outstanding raise, which the "folder" did not notice.  But when he realizes that there was a raise, he said he hadn't noticed the raise.

It would be nice if the dealer says "that's a fold, yes?" or something to that effect.  But I have to agree with most of you that I would call this a muck.

Can we actually say that a hand should have protection because it was "tabled" even in non-showdown situations?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 06:18:04 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 08:54:21 PM »
Ken,

 If you mean the dealer should be allowed to tell the player that there are player's behind him, my answer is yes. What could the player that folded gain? Why would he intentionally muck unless he thought he was the winner.

 I like what you said;     It would be nice if the dealer says "that's a fold, yes?" or something to that effect.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 09:01:41 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 05:54:32 AM »
Yes, the dealer should certainly prevent the cards from being mucked if there is outstanding action.  But if the cards do happen to get into the muck anyways, dealer error or otherwise, then I think the hand should be dead, although I suppose there could be situations where an exception could be made.

What if, for example, the player showed his hand thinking he was the only person left, waited for the dealer to push the pot to him before relinquishing his cards, and then the cards went into the muck, and the original raiser did not say anything while the pot was being pushed?  I could see myself making an exception here.

Nick C

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 07:52:23 AM »
Ken,

 In the non showdown situation, I don't see how we could resurrect a mucked hand of a player that failed to call a raise, tabled or not. Player's must protect their own hand and in this case, the dealer should also know who's competing for the pot. ::)

K-Lo

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 09:12:37 AM »
If the player who folded was the bettor, and it was obvious that he/she didn't realize there was any action left, I don't see why you couldn't give back their clearly identifiable hand.
If they were not the bettor and were facing a bet, I would call it a muck.

So in this other discussion, there are TDs who feel that there is a situation in between - where the player is not the bettor and is facing a bet, and it is also obvious that he/she didn't realize there was a bet to be called.  It is a strange combination of circumstances, but I suppose it is possible.

On the one hand, the player can take back his cards if this really is the case, and play with the disadvantage of the other player knowing what cards he has.  On the other hand, if that hand does get into the muck and is resurrected, the other player is going to be very mad if he ends up getting eliminated by that "mucked" hand!

Tristan

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 09:55:09 AM »
In the in-between circumstance, I feel it is still best to leave it as a muck.  I agree that the player who threw them in face-up is at a disadvantage, but what tells did they get by throwing them in face up?  Was the other player happy they mucked, and now they want their cards back because they know they have a winner?  I just think that way is more open to angles.
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Spence

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 08:16:05 AM »
15: Killing Winning Hand
Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

Nick C

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 08:39:40 AM »
Spence,

 You are correct but, we are referring to a non-showdown situation. Therefore #15 Killing A Winning Hand does not apply.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 09:11:10 AM »
This happened with Andras Koroknai in the WSOP ME this year, and most articles I read are saying it was one of the worst floor calls in WSOP history...

"The action at one of the tables folded all the way around to France’s Gaelle Baumann under the gun, who opened the pre-flop betting with a min-raise to 60,000. The button folded and then Andras Koroknai of Hungary moved all-in for somewhere around 2 million chips from the small blind. Gavin Smith then folded from the big blind and the action was back to Baumann, one of the tournament’s chip leaders.
But it wasn’t. As soon as Smith folded, Koroknai mucked his cards, thinking that the hand was over and that he had won. For whatever reason, he didn’t realize Baumann had raised or even bet anything at all. He thought he had been the first to act, so when Smith folded, the hand was finished. When he realized what he had done, he tried to retrieve his cards from the muck, but was only able to positively locate one of them.
Tournament Director Dennis Jones was called over and after some thought, he decided that Koroknai would lose the 60,000 chips that would have amounted to a call, but he would get to keep the rest of his stack. The players, particularly Baumann and Smith, were confused by the ruling, so Jones called WSOP VP Jack Effel, who confirmed the decision. Jones cited the “integrity of the tournament” as the reason for not requiring Koroknai to lose all of his chips."

It's a tough spot for me as a floor because I believe the door is left wide open for angle shooting.  if I go all-in while bluffing and see that I am about to be called I can just muck my hands and get my raise back?  Alternatively, there is the "best interest of the game" but I just don't see what the best call would be in a case like this.  Glad I didn't have to make it.


Nick C

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 06:55:19 PM »
Brian,
 I'm sorry but I've read the first paragraph 10 times and I still can't follow what happened. How does the action fold around to the UTG pre-flop?

K-Lo

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Re: Killed Hands - Digging into the muck
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 08:11:42 PM »
Nick - we discussed Brian's situation in a previous thread:  http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=714.0

The difference between that situation and the one in my post is that the folder in my situation folded face-up.