Author Topic: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?  (Read 24020 times)

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »
Jasper,
 There is no rule because dealers don't have a rule book for procedures. That's like a driving manual for student's to study before taking a road test. There are rules of the road that every driver must know but, studying the fundamentals are not rules. Anyone that has ever taken a poker dealing course, or dealt in a casino will tell you that they are not allowed to touch any players hand unless it is to make the tabled hand more visible to the rest of the players. You are correct about turning over a players called hand at the request of another player, but the method is to kill the hand first by touching it to the muck. I hope this helps a little.

Fundamentals and procedures for dealers are not rules. They are required mechanical skills, accompanied with a thorough knowledge of the game being dealt.

chet

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2011, 06:01:19 PM »
Jasper:

Here is a link to the Professional Poker Dealers Handbook from the Gamblers Book Shop in Las Vegas, NV.

http://www.gamblersbookclub.com/Book/Poker/Dealing___Rules/2607-PROFESSIONAL_POKER_DEALERS_HANDBOOK

This is the book Nick referred to in a prior post.

Chet

JasperToo

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2011, 06:08:25 PM »
Jasper:

Here is a link to the Professional Poker Dealers Handbook from the Gamblers Book Shop in Las Vegas, NV.

http://www.gamblersbookclub.com/Book/Poker/Dealing___Rules/2607-PROFESSIONAL_POKER_DEALERS_HANDBOOK

This is the book Nick referred to in a prior post.

Chet

Thank you!  I just downloaded it to my Kindle for Android!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:39:59 PM by JasperToo »

Dave Lamb

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2011, 07:55:59 PM »


In TOURNAMENTS:

9. Face Up
All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.


Ideally, the player turns the hand face up at the appropriate time.The dealer, floorperson, cocktail waitress, somebody turn the cards over so that the dealer may conclude the hand. We do not need a more detailed explanation for this rule.

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 03:42:28 AM »
Dave,
 Rule #9 only works for two players. IMO, it needs work. There are many other links on rule #9, so I won't get into that now. The way I would handle the situation of a player refusing to table his own hand (excluding head to head); the hand is dead unless another player wants to see it. I know your kidding about the cocktail waitress, but to me, that would be almost as bad as the dealer turning over the hand.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 07:21:14 AM »
Jasper:

Here is a link to the Professional Poker Dealers Handbook from the Gamblers Book Shop in Las Vegas, NV.

http://www.gamblersbookclub.com/Book/Poker/Dealing___Rules/2607-PROFESSIONAL_POKER_DEALERS_HANDBOOK

This is the book Nick referred to in a prior post.

There is an updated "expanded edition" published a couple years ago that has added NL Hold'em chapters: 
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Poker-Dealers-Handbook-Expanded/dp/1880685477

JasperToo

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 09:25:36 AM »
Jasper,
 There is no rule because dealers don't have a rule book for procedures. ...
...Fundamentals and procedures for dealers are not rules. They are required mechanical skills, accompanied with a thorough knowledge of the game being dealt.

So if it is not a rule then the narrow scope of the TDA #9 doesn't prohibit a dealer from turning over the cards (but, very clearly only in this setting).  Perhaps we do need to put a short note in rule #9 to make it clear that it is ok.

Or since there is no rule against the cocktail waitress turning over the cards we could just call her over  ;D :D :P

Stuart Murray

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 09:43:20 AM »
Hi all,

Dave,
 Rule #9 only works for two players. IMO, it needs work. There are many other links on rule #9, so I won't get into that now. The way I would handle the situation of a player refusing to table his own hand (excluding head to head); the hand is dead unless another player wants to see it. I know your kidding about the cocktail waitress, but to me, that would be almost as bad as the dealer turning over the hand.

I question what your refer to when stating that it only works with two players, as if I reach a showdown when a player is all-in ALL players who have reached the showdown MUST table their hole cards, for example where two players have checked down an all-in player they must both show their hole cards along with the all-in player.

I agree that rule 9 does need some further work done to it, I think it needs to stipulate that a player must table their cards, but I don't think I would like to add to the rule that the dealer may table the cards if the player does not as this could cause more issues with interpretation than it solves.

Regards
Stu

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 12:53:35 PM »
Stuart,
 When I said that it only works for head to head, I was making reference to any betting round. In other words, two players head to head pre-flop with one all-in. Both hands should be turned over before dealing begins. This of course would not be possible with multiple players facing further bets. Likewise, at the showdown in multi handed pots with a side pot or more, the order of showdown is altered. That is why I don't care for the way Rule #9 is written. If the side pots are to be decided before the pot that any all-in is contesting, why would we turn the all-in's hand over before we should? We have gone over this at great length on other threads.

 I also agree with you and I will quote you: "rule 9 does need some further work done to it, I think it needs to stipulate that a player must table their cards, but I don't think I would like to add to the rule that the dealer may table the cards if the player does not as this could cause more issues with interpretation than it solves."
 I'm glad you wrote it the way you did. Too many members insist that the dealer is responsible for turning over the cards, when it is clearly the responsibility of the owner of the hand. It should be handled no different than a player acting out of turn (for example), or keeping his cards in front of his chips, or not covering his cards, or splashing the pot, etc. etc.


JasperToo

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 01:32:17 PM »
Just a small point, my position is NOT that is should be the RESPONSIBILITY of the dealer, I just think there are a few instances in this particular situation that it would not be inappropriate for the dealer to turn the hand over...

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 04:10:09 PM »
Jasper,
 I guess agreeing on one out of three is good for today. You're wrong again. It is not acceptable, until they change it.

JasperToo

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 04:49:54 PM »
LOL, 

Nick, I wish I could see if you were smiling a little bit when you said that!

We will have to see if it gets brought up at the summit.

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2011, 07:28:18 PM »
Jasper,
 I'm always smiling. I'm good at poker and shoveling snow. When I figure out how to put those smiley faces on my posts, I'll do it.

Spence

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2011, 07:15:36 PM »
We'll have to mark this question down for the summit:
"Should the tournament dealer flip over a player's hand if the player mucks when he is required to show; such as in the case where there is an all-in and all action is complete."

I have been of the opinion that yes, the dealer should flip the hand over and it should be live in such a circumstance.  The reason behind this is that if a player was intending to dump chips to another player, he would otherwise get away with it if he were able to muck.

The reason I don't feel this should ever happen in a cash game is because chip dumping isn't as much of an issue when a guy could walk around the table and hand another guy cash anyway.  In a tournament, it could be tempting when a player has a large stack and a friend of his is all-in to try and just muck and give him the pot.  If we don't REQUIRE the hands to be shown, and ENFORCE that rule, then the players are not protected, IMHO.
Chip dumping is a sensitive topic for me. A dealer was fired over trying to enforce a rule (that was not in place in our card room. He was trained elsewhere) that he believed prevented collusion. I've used a similair rule in the past. Our rule is not exactly like what is described above so here goes.
IF:
>Player A bets the river
>Player B calls
>Player A mucks
>Player B must open before the dealer awards the pot
We don't need to see player A's hand. He may have been bluffing and we want to preserve his right to bluff so there is no sense in showing the hand. We want to open player B's hand. If player B calls with 9 high, then we know that there is collusion happening. There is no reason to call a bet on the river by another player without having a hand to do so. This isn't fool proof as players may call with Ace high, or even King high but anything less than that and we know without a doubt that these players are colluding.
Thoughts?

chet

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2011, 08:15:46 PM »
Spence:  I disagree with your rule.  The reason being that player A (the bluffer) may have a tell that player B picked up on such that player B knows that player A is bluffing and has NOTHING.  There is no reason to suspect collusion unless you can establish over time that these two play together a lot and player B constantly wins in these situations. 

Personally, I know of a individual in my local casino where I call his river bets quite often with minimal holdings (even a small card that pairs the board).  This guy regularly bluffs the river with large way over pot size bets and more often than not has absolutely nothing.  I have caught him several times by calling or re-raising and he just folds if he has nothing.  It is not a chip dumping/collusion situation as I don't even know his name, but I know how he plays.

I would be really upset if I had to show my cards after he folds.  Not that he would gain any additional knowledge, but that the other players at the table would.  I can't help it if they can't figure out how to play back at this guy and I sure don't want to give them any lessons.

Chet