Author Topic: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?  (Read 24021 times)

Nick C

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There are many questions throughout the Discussion Forum that pertain to showing cards at the showdown. Why would it be necessary to ask to see a called hand, when it should be autmatically tabled? Or am I to understand TDA rule #9 is for all-in situations only? There is constant reference to RRoP when it comes to order of showdown and the right for any player at the table to see a called hand. This is very clear for cash games, but there does not seem to be separation from tournaments. I think that TDA rules should apply to tournaments only and whenever there is a rule that is for cash games only, it should be marked with an asterik and added as a footnote.

Your thoughts are always welcome.

chet

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 07:07:31 AM »
Nick: 

The Rules adopted by the TDA apply ONLY to Tournaments.  The TDA has NEVER claimed they are intended to apply to Cash Games.  That said, there is nothing the TDA can do if a particular card room/casino chooses to adopt TDA rules for Cash Games. 

TDA Rule #9 is also quite clear.  It states, "All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete." (emphasis added)  So for TDA Rule #9 to apply there are TWO CONDITIONS that must be met, 1) there must be an all-in player, AND 2) all betting action must be complete.

Chet

JasperToo

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2011, 07:51:52 AM »
Let's do some more quoting of RROP  :D...

section 15:1 - Whenever possible, all rules are the same as those that apply to live games.

My understanding is that TDA rules have the same foundational principle, though house rules would win out over RROP or whatever other foundational rule set you wanted to use.

Therefore, if a TDA rule doesn't cover it then the foundational rules would apply.  In the showdown situation, TDA only covers the all in situation with no more action, if that is not the case then the showdown rule would come from the foundation rule set.  (RROP is last aggressive action or firstt player left of button)

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2011, 09:07:56 AM »
Chet,
 So rule #9 is for tournaments and all-in only. Okay, thank you......So in any other showdown situation, all players in for all bets, do not have to table their cards?
Jasper,
 I understand the order of showdown is the same in cash and tournaments. I guess that Chet answered my question. I just wonder where the rule is that says all hands must be tabled in tournaments. I thought it was from TDA rule #9.
 So....at the showdown, with players in for all bets, all hands DO NOT have to be tabled unless it is at the request of any player that wishes to see it? Does the dealer kill the hand, before showing it, in the same manner that they would in a cash game?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 09:15:59 AM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2011, 10:18:02 AM »
Hi Nick etc

at showdown under TDA rules in a tournament a showdown which DOES NOT involve an All-in player, mucking hole cards is permitted.

at showdown under TDA rules in a tournament a showdown which DOES involve an all-in player, all hands that reach a showdown must be tabled

My experience of cash game poker is that a player can muck at any time under any circumstance is they wish to concede claim to a pot.

Regards
Stu

MikeB

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2011, 10:38:36 AM »
Chet, So rule #9 is for tournaments and all-in only. Okay, thank you......So in any other showdown situation, all players in for all bets, do not have to table their cards?

This was a topic discussed at length on the floor of the '09 Summit towards the end of Day 2. There was widespread consensus out of the discussion that: 1) For a showdown where no player is all-in, a player may elect to muck his cards face down; 2) At which point the dealer should take the hand and kill it (the definition of kill was not defined, presumably because different venues have different standards for this, sometimes there's a betting line, sometimes not, etc.); 3) Say there's only 2 players and one of them mucks face down, the surviving player is the winner by default and need not show his hand; 4) Despite this, the winner or other player at the table may request to see the hand, if the winner does, the hand is definitely live; 5) It is not appropriate for the dealer to turn the cards up.
I would add to the above: 6) The declaration "fold" has no meaning at showdown, cards are live until they reach the point of being killed as defined by that venue. So we're talking about players pushing their cards face down towards the muck, not a verbal declaration.  

We may never see this actually become part of the TDA rules because IMO the TDA supports the idea of encouraging all players to show all hands at showdonw, all-in or not. Mucking face down is really an aberration, this discussion just confirmed that if it's the player's wish to muck, it is to be respected.

So....at the showdown, with players in for all bets, all hands DO NOT have to be tabled unless it is at the request of any player that wishes to see it?
Right, but we may not want to print this as a rule which might start encouraging more and more players not to show at showdown. Ideally we want people to show. Amongst other things, having people delay showing their cards just adds to showdown management chaos.
Does the dealer kill the hand, before showing it, in the same manner that they would in a cash game?  Yes, but as of now that varies by venue, and by whether a betting line is used or not. IMO it's more likely that we might get a common definition of what constitutes a killed hand at this Summit.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 11:26:54 PM by MikeB »

JasperToo

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2011, 10:46:59 AM »
Hey Nick, I was going to respond to your post  but MikeB beat me to it and said it like it is!

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2011, 11:16:03 AM »
Thanks to all,
 I'm still learning and I suspect, when I have this right the rules will change again. I don't know exactly what made me think that every called hand is live, at the showdown,(must be tabled) in a tournament. So...if an opposing player wants to see the mucked hand, it will be killed in the same manner as a cash game? Okay, got it. Thanks Mike.

PLEASE NOTE: I added (must be tabled) in parenthesis above, for a better understanding of my question. I also want to bring one of Mike B's quotes to everyones attention: 5) It is not appropriate for the dealer to turn the cards up.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:53:55 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 09:06:02 AM »
Nick:

With regard to the last sentence in your recent post:

"I also want to bring one of Mike B's quotes to everyones attention: 5) It is not appropriate for the dealer to turn the cards up."

IF, and only if you are referring to our recent disagreement regarding the dealer turning a players cards face up in an all-in situation when the player fails/refuses to do so, Mike's example IS NOT an all-in situation.  I totally agree that a dealer should not turn a players cards face up if TDA Rule #9 does not apply.

I hope this gets some discussion at the upcoming Summit.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 09:27:39 AM »
Chet,
 It will if I'm there.

W0lfster

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 09:33:55 AM »
But as far as Rule 9 is concerned, if a player refuses to showhis/her cards when there is for example an all in and a call so then betting is complete, I believe the dealer should turn that player's hand over as the rule says: "All cards will be turned face up when betting action is complete". However, that only applies to tournaments because in a cash game you dont have to show until the end if you dont want to. I think this discussion has been made more complex than it actually is, in my mind in a tournament cards must be tabled as soon as all betting is complete but in a cash game you dont have to show until the end.

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 11:12:51 AM »
Andy,
 If you believe that the dealer should turn the cards over, then you can discuss that with the rulemakers, in the casino or house that you play in. There are others that share your opinion. However, the rules state that the owner of the hand is the one that should turn them over, not the dealer.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2011, 01:17:21 PM »
We'll have to mark this question down for the summit:
"Should the tournament dealer flip over a player's hand if the player mucks when he is required to show; such as in the case where there is an all-in and all action is complete."

I have been of the opinion that yes, the dealer should flip the hand over and it should be live in such a circumstance.  The reason behind this is that if a player was intending to dump chips to another player, he would otherwise get away with it if he were able to muck.

The reason I don't feel this should ever happen in a cash game is because chip dumping isn't as much of an issue when a guy could walk around the table and hand another guy cash anyway.  In a tournament, it could be tempting when a player has a large stack and a friend of his is all-in to try and just muck and give him the pot.  If we don't REQUIRE the hands to be shown, and ENFORCE that rule, then the players are not protected, IMHO.

Nick C

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 01:32:59 PM »
Brian,
 I am with you 100%. I would be in complete agreement for the dealer to turn over the called hand of a player in a tournament, that refuses to turn it himself. However, it is not a rule (yet), and it would go against dealer training in any reputable Poker Dealing School anywhere. I know that you must agree, having dealt in major tournaments around the country. For the last time, I will state that if it is made a rule I would have no problem with it. In my opinion, until that happens, it is unacceptable.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:55:55 AM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: Do current TDA rules dictate a "must show" at showdown, or not?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 04:39:29 PM »
I think this would be very good to bring to the table at the next summit.

I mentioned it before but the dealer not turning over cards is not addressed in TDA rules or RROP anywhere.  So this must be some other fundamental Dealer's only rulebook (which I would love some suggestions on which ones to read).  And that is fine, of course.  Certainly in every other situation but the one we are discussing the dealer has no business tabling mucked cards.  And in most places if a player does table a hand and one card is completely covering the second, a dealer is not supposed to even slide the top one over to expose the lower card, the player is asked to do it. 

However, in a situation where a player has folded and another player asks to see the hand (all according to the rules :) ) the DEALER turns the cards up for all to see, he doesn't ask the player to do it.  So with the narrow language of TDA #9 once the action is complete and a player is all in, it no longer matters who turns them up as they must be shown.  But that is just my silly little opinion....

So where do we put the new rule about the dealers turning these hands over?  In TDA rules or in a new version of Dealer School Rules :) ??? 8)