Author Topic: Showdown  (Read 9033 times)

Christine

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Showdown
« on: March 15, 2011, 03:18:25 AM »
Hi Guys, Hope you can help me.
So this is the situation:
all 5 community cards are out with two remaining players still in the hand. player 1: moves all in on the river card and player 2 without stating anything shows his cards but still behind the line and he doesn`t do a fold action! Are player 2 cards still in play or is it a dead hand?  At that time i ruled that it is still in play as there were two players left and all community cards are out so there wouldn`t be any changes to the bets and i gave player 2 a penalty.

W0lfster

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 03:40:00 AM »
Christine,
You are correct the hand is not dead but I generally like to give a warning before I give a penalty. I presume player 2 does not put chips in to call and is last to act, in that case the hand plays but a warning should be given at the end of the hand and then a penalty at the end of future hands. If Player 2's cards were over the line I would rule it dead. The fact that the river has been dealt does not matter, the cards would still be in play if it was done preflop, flop, turn and river. If the player exposes his/her hand with action pending the player has all options open to them check, bet, raise, call and fold but has the disadvantage of players knowing what he/she has.

Hope this helps!
Andy

chet

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 07:49:11 AM »
Andy:

Whose action is pending?  The only betting that has not been completed would be for player 2 to call the all-in of player 1.  I would ask Player 2, "Are you folding or calling?" and let the hand play out.  I think Player 2 should be instructed/educated not to expose his/her cards until they make their decision clear, but I fail to see how a penalty applies in this situation.

If this were to happen a 2nd time, and Player 2 had the winning hand, I might go so far as to let Player 1 take his all-in bet back.  I think Player 2 would get the message from that alone.

Chet

W0lfster

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 08:04:14 AM »
Chet,

That is why I said If with action pending the player exposes his/her cards etc before the showdown basically the player plays the hand as if he/she hadnt exposed them at all, so normal play but with an exposed hand. I am just trying to make it clearer for Christine because I struggled to understand this rule also and not everyone has as much knowledge as you do. Player 2 although its still call the all in or fold he/she has still exposed his/her cards before the betting was completed and therefore should be issued a warning for breaking the one player to a hand rule. Again the disciplinary procedures the player faces really depends on the TD but if tha was me I would issue a warning then a penalty. As you say, TD's need to be consistent in how they issue warnings/penalties, if this player was to do it again I cannot imagine not giving the player a penalty. I suppose such a topic is a little subjective depening on how the TD's feel on the severity of the situation, there is no recipe for perfectly handling every situation but to avoid such occurences for future hands.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 06:36:17 PM »
Hi Christine

You were spot on with your ruling, the hand is still live (subject to TDA rules) but the player has violated the 'one player to a hand' rule, so shall receive a penalty once the hand is complete, Generally I would control the river if I caught that kind of angling, and the penalty would be determined by how much intent was used when exposing ones hole cards.

For example if it was an experienced player, who was doing it to get a read from the other player, and on a total angle shot, I would penalize more severely than a novice who was nervous and made the mistake of tabling the cards thinking it was acceptable due to 'TV Poker'

Regards
Stuart

chet

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2011, 07:07:25 PM »
Stuart:

I really don't understand how in the world Player 2 violated the "one player to a hand" rule.  There were only two players left in the hand, Player 1 and Player 2.  The River card has already been boarded and Player 1 went "all-in".  Since Player 1 is all-in after the River, the only possible further action is from Player 2 to either fold or call the all-in. 

After further consideration, I MIGHT be inclined to invoke TDA Rule 42, Exposing Cards and/or TDA Rule 43, Ethical Play, but I really don't see how TDA Rule 41, applies.

OR am I missing something?

Chet

Stuart Murray

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2011, 08:39:21 PM »
hi chet,

one player to a hand is valid in these situations as betting action, even though limited is still not complete, so therefore players must protect the identity of their hole cards until they either a) fold or b) call the all-in IMO

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 06:36:43 AM »
Stuart,
 Where have you been? I have to agree with Chet on this one. I think that his answer was perfect and I don't understand how that violates the one player per hand rule, either? I think Christine handled the situation okay. A penalty for a first offense might be a little harsh but, it's a good way to get the message across. Head to head makes the call easier.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2011, 07:13:33 AM »
Hi Nick, been engaged elsewhere and just haven't had the time to be reading the forums etc, question for you:

One Player to a hand, is self explanatory right? so therefore turning ones hand over whilst facing a bet or raise with action still pending means more than ONE player now has access to the holding, therefore one player to a hand has been violated.

I thought it was pretty straightforward, mabey not! One player to a hand can include actively discussing your hand, tabling your hand, or making gestures which would perceive players to be able to read another's hand.

Stu

Christine

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 03:55:53 AM »
would the cards be still in play if the player did it to have a reaction from the other player when he moved all in?
also another question:
river card is dealt player 1 exposes his cards face up behind the line, player 2 and player 3 haven`t acted yet. they start shouting at me that the hand is dead but i don`t rule it dead as all community cards are dealt and i take it as an advantage to the other players to see his hand. is the hand dead in this case? and if there weren`t all the 5 board cards out would it be a dead hand then?

chet

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Re: Showdown
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 07:40:21 AM »
Christine:

I think you will find your answers in this thread:

http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=297.0

Chet