Author Topic: Cards exposed during hand  (Read 26184 times)

W0lfster

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Cards exposed during hand
« on: February 11, 2011, 06:18:32 AM »
A little confusion here that I would like confirmation.

What happens in a tournament when you accidentally expose your hole cards when a hand is being played and you havent folded, from what I know your hand is not dead. If this is so, does that mean the player is no longer allowed to bet in the hand and will be skipped but can still claim the pot at showdown if the winner?

Also does the same rule apply in cash games?

Thx
Andy  :)

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 06:35:45 AM »
Andy,
 If you accidentaly expose your cards in a tournament (or cash game), the main concern is that all active players see your exposed cards. Your hand is not dead, unless you fold, and no.... you can not compete for the pot without calling all bets. You will be playing with an open hand and that's not a good way to show a profit in a poker game, is it?

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 06:44:47 AM »
I dont get it, so if you cannot win then why isnt your hand dead? :S CONFUSED?!!!

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 07:05:06 AM »
Andy,
 If you don't understand what I have written then I think your question has to be explained a little more clearly. I'm having a tough time trying to figure why you would ask a question like this. This is not black jack...it's POKER, you can't show any cards to anyone until the showdown. If you ACCIDENTALLY expose your hand, you not only hinder your chances for winning, but you may seriously affect the betting, and the outcome of the hand. If your accidental exposure of your cards continues, you will probably have to find another cardroom to play in.

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 07:20:44 AM »
Nick, I dont want a conversation about what I can or cant post on here I just would like please the ruling on this situation and to be fair I think youd be penalised for this offence continuing, I dont think I should find another card room if this happened to me.

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 07:42:12 AM »
Andy,
 Think about the effect one exposed card could have on any hand. I've stopped further betting in hands where cards were prematurely exposed. You are correct about posting whatever you want. The original question stated that it was an accident, so we should consider that. The first accident should be followed by a warning. If the accidents continue....yes, a penalty (in a tournament) would be the way to go. My answer about finding another cardroom was for any player that exposes their hand on a regular basis. It would be tough to find any serious players to compete against. I'm sorry if I offended you.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 04:03:25 PM by Nick C »

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 07:59:42 AM »
Thats ok Nick and thanks, so are you therefore saying his/her hand remains face up for the duration of the hand or what? Why not just have the dealer muck the cards if he/she has no claim to the pot and cannot bet? And yes this is purely for accidental purposes.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 08:06:05 AM »
Hi Andy,

Exposing your hand rules vary from venue to venue, some will announce your hand dead immediately (the WPT used to use this rule not sure if they have changed yet or not) but most TDA compliant rules allow the hand to remain live in tournament poker.  We allow the hand to still play (intentionally exposed or accidentally) as it is not in the best interests of tournament poker to kill a hand which is in play. The object of tournament poker is for one player to have all the chips and killing a hand impedes the tournament.

My own tournament players shall receive a penalty of at least 1 hand, if they expose their cards in violation of the 'one player to a hand rule' and they may be restricted to 'passive' play only during the hand.

With regard to cash game poker, there is a mixture of rules out there and they vary widely between cardrooms, especially in Europe with the majority allowing you to continue if you have accidentally exposed your cards but killing your hand if you intentionally expose your cards.

Regards
Stu
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 08:50:06 AM »
So are you saying Stu that the player gets a chance to claim the pot? Please these answers just arent clear enough for me as Nick says one thing and your implying another thing.

chet

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2011, 09:25:38 AM »
Wolfster:  The hand is LIVE and if it is the best hand at the showdown it would win the pot (assuming the player does not fold).  It can also win a share, if the 'board plays', again assuming the player has not folded.  It would make absolutely NO SENSE to keep the hand live, if it did not have an opportunity to win. 

TDA Rule 42 applies and any warning/penalty is applied at the end of the hand. 

As to whether this player would be restricted to only passive play, there is NO TDA rule governing this directly as far as I know.  On a first instance, I certainly would not consider any such restriction.  However, I understand Stuart's position and if this became something more than an isolation instance or accident, I can fully support the imposition of such. 

That said, I think the restriction to only passive play would have to be covered with a "House Rule" since there is no provision for that type of penalty/restriction anywhere in the TDA Rules.  TDA Rule 40 does not include any provision for 'passive play', at least that is how I read it.

Hope this helps!!

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2011, 12:05:06 PM »
Ok so let me get this straight, the cards are left with the player but are not folded/dead. So am I right in saying once and for all the player cannot bet on later streets but can win the pot anyway? I dont think this is fair as he/she hasnt committed enough to win if there were any bets/raises after the infringement.

chet

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2011, 12:27:19 PM »
Don't these paragraphs, from my prior post, answer your question?


"As to whether this player would be restricted to only passive play, there is NO TDA rule governing this directly as far as I know.  On a first instance, I certainly would not consider any such restriction.  However, I understand Stuart's position and if this became something more than an isolation instance or accident, I can fully support the imposition of such.

That said, I think the restriction to only passive play would have to be covered with a "House Rule" since there is no provision for that type of penalty/restriction anywhere in the TDA Rules.  TDA Rule 40 does not include any provision for 'passive play', at least that is how I read it."

If you, as the TD, or the card room choose to implement a "passive play" rule, so be it.  The choice is yours.  The TDA has no rule as such.  Personally, I would NOT impose such a restriction UNLESS it was in combination with another penalty for repeatedly exposing one or both cards.

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »
Andy,
 You probably don't want to hear from me again but, I'm having a tough time understanding your situation. You can get mad at me if you want, that's okay. I have a difficult time making the right call when I don't understand the question. In order to get the correct answer I need you to break down all of the information that you can. How many players? What betting round? etc, etc. Your initial question indicates to me that there is more betting to follow. If that is the case, I see no options other than calling any bets in front of you (with your exposed hand) or taking any action that you would normally take if no mishap occured. That would include checking, or betting, or even raising with your cards exposed for all to see. You may still win but, I sure would feel uncomfortable if someone called. If you expose your hand, you can not declare yourself all-in and play for any portion of the pot, unless you really are, all-in. If I missed again, then I'm afraid I can't help.

Andy, whether the cards remain face up or not is irrelevant, as long as they were announced and the remaining players know the rank and suit.

Stuart and Chet, I need your definition of passive play. Thanks
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 09:09:12 AM by Nick C »

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2011, 02:18:49 PM »
Ok ok its getting heated here Ill stop :(

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 03:06:51 PM »
Andy,

I think an actual situation might help you to understand. So here is one just off the top of my head...

P1 and P2 are the only players left in the pot with the board cards, Kh Qs Jd Tc. Before the last card is revealed, P2 accidentally shows their hand which is 9h 8c. The Dealer, not realising the error, produces the 9s as the river card. As P2 realises their mistake, they flip their hand face down but not before P1 has seen P2's hand. 

These questions are for you Andy:
a) If you were P1 and were holding Ah Kd also knowing you couldn't lose, would you bet?
b) What would be the way to make money from this hand?
c) What if P1 showed their hand instead. If you were P2 and you knew you would lose, would you make the call?

You don't have to tell me your answers but please think carefully about your answers as it could mean the difference between walking away with a lot of money or none at all.

As you have heard, TDA Rules state that in this situation, the hand is LIVE and IN MY ROOM can be played however that player wants.

Also as TDs, we need to take all things into account for example, intentional, accidental, etc.

Hpoe this helps