Author Topic: using a calculator in a hand  (Read 22650 times)

W0lfster

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using a calculator in a hand
« on: February 03, 2011, 04:51:20 PM »
A bit random, but intriguing,
My girlfriend has Dyscalculia and struggles with counting. She really likes poker and I was wondering if you are allowed a calculator while in a hand. I do not see anything wrong in it lol but it isn't really standard practice.
Any thoughts.
Thx.  ;D

Nick C

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 06:05:06 PM »
There are rules against certain electronic devices in all casino poker rooms. I think if you explain the situation before playing, your girlfriend will probably be allowed to use her calculator. It would have to be a calculator with no other capabilities. Phones or texting are definitely forbidden.

DCJ001

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 06:41:40 PM »
Poker is a competitive game in which people compete for money. Casinos do not allow electronic devices to assist players in competing against the house while playing blackjack. Similarly, electronic devices such as calculators are not allowed at the poker tables of any reputable poker director of any reputable casino to assist players in competing against other players.

Knowledge of the game, experience, and intelligence are factors that some players use to gain an edge. But if calculators are allowed, where does it stop? Some smart phones have PokerStove applications that are levels beyond simple calculators.

Someone of NickC's experience should know better than to allow/encourage using electronic devices at the poker table.

If anyone disagrees with anything that I've said in this post, possibly you should ask Matt, Jan, or someone whose opinion you respect who has extensive knowledge and experience of the ways that things should be done in poker.

Nick C

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 08:36:27 PM »
DCJ001,
 Considering the condition of his girlfriend, I stand by my belief that she would be allowed to play in any tournament as long as the device was a calculator only. I don't trust the table cams that are used for every major tournament, but that's not going to make them go away, is it? You are constantly making reference to the intelligence required to play this game. Are you telling me that a player of your intelligence would feel compromised by this girl using a calculator? Let's get real.
 I resent you telling me that I should know better than to allow, or encourage someone using electronic devices at a poker table. People submit questions and are looking for answers. I will assume that all members have read the TDA Rules. If all of the answers were in the rules, they wouldn't be asking for advice.

chet

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 10:28:44 PM »
I'll bet that one of the attorney types that follow this forum from time to time would LOVE to have a case in the US of Wolfster's GF being denied the use of a calculator if her condition can be documented.  In the US there is a whole section of law that revolves around and covers persons with disabilities.  If the use of a simple calculator, no phone, no camera, no poker related software of any kind, etc., as Nick said was denied, the casino, cardroom is opening themselves up to a serious lawsuit, which they will very likely lose. 

What is different about her situation than the blind player who is allowed to have another person next to him who 'reads' his hole cards and the board cards and tells him the value and suit?

If she has a documented disability and brings 'proof' of that disability to the casino, the casino has a legal obligation to make all 'reasonable accommodations' to allow her to compete as though she had no such disability. 

The proper action for the casino is to verify the existence of the disability and if she brings a calculator, to verify the device falls within the allowable limits.  If so, then the floor and/or dealer should announce that she will be allowed to play with the device.  They DO NOT have to say why, in fact, it may be a violation of the ADA to explain the why.

Hope this helps!!

Stuart Murray

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 02:12:11 AM »
I am with Nick and Chet, if the situation is discussed with the cardroom manager first I don't see any issue with it being used, again providing it is just a calculator, but then you know what UK Casinos are like with their no mobile phones at the table rule, many allow texting/facebooking just not calliing.

Regards
Stuart

JasperToo

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 09:07:43 AM »
I am firmly in the camp of "let use it".  As stated she would have to find a way to demonstrate the nature of her disability.  I am actually surprised to hear someone so opposed.  Hell, if you are going to allow Ipods, sunglasses and the like, what the heck does a calculator do for you?

Actually, I am more interested in how she has to use it to assist her.  Is it just counting the pot?  Is it somehow to help count her odds?  Either way it's not like a calculator would actually make it easier for a Pro without a disability to play the game if they used one.  In fact it would likely get in their way. 

W0lfster

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 02:17:29 PM »
Thanks everyone, yeah I guess the managers of someone would have to be notified first. Well she just needs help counting up the chips to equal the relevant bet, I dont think for now as a beginner she is going to be thinking about odds.

DCJ001

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 03:27:35 PM »
Thanks everyone, yeah I guess the managers of someone would have to be notified first. Well she just needs help counting up the chips to equal the relevant bet, I dont think for now as a beginner she is going to be thinking about odds.

In this case, it would be better to get help from the dealer, instead of using a calculator, in my opinion.

Stuart Murray

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 04:46:40 PM »
DJC, the dealer will be of no help, unless it is a pot-limit game

I think what Andrew is aiming at is that his partner has difficulty through no fault of her own at counting the pot, therefore if she has a calculator she can quickly surmise a rough pot count in order that she bets and raises amounts which are proportional.

Regards
Stuart

W0lfster

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 08:16:25 PM »
Thank you Stuart, and yes she does have difficulty I mean I've never seen it before not even on TV but do you think it would be allowed also in a televised final table? I say this because TV shows like to show players understand what they are doing if you get me, and it wouldnt look very professional.

DCJ001

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 08:54:29 PM »
Thanks everyone, yeah I guess the managers of someone would have to be notified first. Well she just needs help counting up the chips to equal the relevant bet, I dont think for now as a beginner she is going to be thinking about odds.
DJC, the dealer will be of no help, unless it is a pot-limit game

I think what Andrew is aiming at is that his partner has difficulty through no fault of her own at counting the pot, therefore if she has a calculator she can quickly surmise a rough pot count in order that she bets and raises amounts which are proportional.

In Andy's post, he specifically made reference to his girlfriend's inability to "count up the chips to equal the relevant bet." The dealer could assist with that. At no point did Andy nor I make reference to counting the pot.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 11:58:18 PM »
This is actually a rule in the TDA and WSOP rules, although not spelled out as such. The rule specifically revolves around "seating" but I think you could make a case to broaden the rule to encompass this and other situations.

TDA rule #4 # Random Seats

Tournament and satellite seats will be randomly assigned. Accommodations for players with special physical needs will be made when possible.


This rule only states accommodations for physical needs, but you certainly can't exclude mental needs IMO.

From the WSOP rules and the R.O.P.E. rules

Arrangements for seating will be made whenever possible for players with special needs.


These rules again revolve around seating, but are a little more broader in terms, allowing for accommodations for special needs.

Perhaps a bit of a rewrite is in order here.
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

W0lfster

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2011, 08:48:47 AM »
That is true DCJ however, considering we only play no limit you are not allowed to get the dealer to count the pot anyway as explained in the rules as oppposed to pot limit, this is only for counting out what to bet and IMO getting the dealer to help count out her chips which he/she would need to do very regularly due to her condition. I can only see it wasting time for the dealers and tournament as a whole this is why I think a calculator would really come in useful in speeding up the game.

Stuart Murray

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2011, 07:18:12 PM »
If someone came to me and explained their situation like this I would have no problem with it.  McGee I love your addition of using the accommodations rule #4 that's an excellent interpretation of that rule which I have never considered before, well done.

Andrew, even it is was the final table of the WSOP I can't see Jack Effel having an issue with your girlfriend being at the final table, calculator in hand.

McGhee with regard to your rule #4 revision all would be required would be to drop the drop 'physical' so it read 'special needs'

Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 07:21:09 PM by Stuart Murray »