Author Topic: using a calculator in a hand  (Read 22649 times)

Dave Lamb

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2011, 10:25:41 PM »

We are olbigated both morally and ethically to make REASONABLE efforts to accomodate those players' with special needs.
It can be managed into acceptable forms. A mirrored box to allow an individual to illuminate and magnify the cards can be outlawed if it offers an unfair advantage to the player with special needs-so redesign it. A calculator at the table would not be appropriate during the actual play of a hand any more than a computer or a private tutor- so what does help the person? A person who signs to communicate cannot have an assistant sittiing behind you signing. They may stand away from the table to relay tournament announcements and they can use written notes. Accomodate, but not at the expense of the other players.

The point: Common sense reigns, you cannot make your hold'em table eight-handed just because two or more people are obese.


DCJ001

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2011, 04:33:13 PM »

We are olbigated both morally and ethically to make REASONABLE efforts to accomodate those players' with special needs.
It can be managed into acceptable forms. A mirrored box to allow an individual to illuminate and magnify the cards can be outlawed if it offers an unfair advantage to the player with special needs-so redesign it. A calculator at the table would not be appropriate during the actual play of a hand any more than a computer or a private tutor- so what does help the person? A person who signs to communicate cannot have an assistant sittiing behind you signing. They may stand away from the table to relay tournament announcements and they can use written notes. Accomodate, but not at the expense of the other players.

The point: Common sense reigns, you cannot make your hold'em table eight-handed just because two or more people are obese.

Hopefully, Dave's logic will be understood and used so that tournaments and cash games can be managed responsibly, without unnecessarily offering an advantage to some players.

Nick C

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2011, 07:44:43 PM »
I don't agree with Dave and DCJ001 or anyone else that thinks there is something wrong with a calculator at the table. I think there should be at least one at the table for calculating how much is in the pot (for pot limit). I actually had a waffer thin calculator valcroed to the top of the rake slide to assist the new dealers in counting down their poker table bank. When I have my own poker room, you can all bring your calculators. I'd rather sit between a couple players using a calculator than some of the foul mouthed, foul smelling, intoxicated, obnoxious characters that frequent some card rooms. As long as it doesn't slow down the action, I see nothing wrong with using a calculator. I see no advantage whatsoever.
 I have to say that I am surprised at Dave's answer to this question. How does a calculator compare to a computer, or a private tudor? The answer is not clear. In my opinion, that is one of the problems with some of the written rules. Adding calculators to the list of forbidden items, along with cell phones and other electronic devices is simple enough. Then, we can show players (in writting) that using calculators is against the rules. When they're on the list, the players won't bring them. Oh, and don't forget to check your firearms at the security office before entering the cardroom.
 Dave, that does raise another interesting thought. What would you do if you had six or seven 300lb players at a table? Hmm........
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 06:06:20 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2011, 08:47:54 PM »
Maybe I am getting a little thick or maybe Dave is being facetious.  All I know is that I don't understand what he said.

Dave Lamb

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2011, 11:45:08 PM »
I am saying that, when standardizing tournament rules, we want to make common sense decisions when dealing with special needs circumstances. It is counter-productive to believe we could create policies or procedures for handling all of the exceptions that occur in poker.

chet

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2011, 09:31:58 AM »
AMEN, Dave!!

Stuart Murray

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2011, 10:29:53 AM »
Now I'm confused, does that mean if I suffer from Dyscalculia I can bring my calculator to your cardroom or not Dave, in fact my head hurts lol

Regards
Stuart

DCJ001

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2011, 03:00:24 PM »
Maybe I am getting a little thick or maybe Dave is being facetious.  All I know is that I don't understand what he said.
Now I'm confused, does that mean if I suffer from Dyscalculia I can bring my calculator to your cardroom or not Dave, in fact my head hurts lol

Regards
Stuart

It's unfortunate that at least two people do not understand Dave's opinion, as he posted it, with regard to people using calculators while playing in poker tournaments or cash games for money.

My understanding of Dave's opinion is that allowing anyone to use a calculator at a poker table is unfair to everyone else in the tournament or at the table in a cash game.

It's also unfortunate that at least one person in this thread who trains dealers does understand Dave's opinion, but he feels that calculators should be allowed anyway.

I'm sure it will be discussed at the next TDA Conference, let them argue it out there.

Regards
Stuart

Discussing this topic at the TDA conference would be a distraction and a complete waste of time.

chet

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2011, 04:26:37 PM »
Perhaps you did not read the clarification that Dave posted which I quote below"

I am saying that, when standardizing tournament rules, we want to make common sense decisions when dealing with special needs circumstances. It is counter-productive to believe we could create policies or procedures for handling all of the exceptions that occur in poker.

I see nothing in this statement that can be even remotely considered to PREVENT someone from using a calculator, if the TD determines that such use does not give this person an advantage over the rest of the players AND if the TD determines that such use is the best way to make a reasonable accommodation to a player with a special need.

A general discussion of how to meet the needs of a player with a documented special need would NOT be a waste of time at the next summit.  In fact, I think it would be very beneficial to ensure that TDs and cardroom owners/managers are aware of their responsibilities in this area AND it makes no difference if you are a US TD or a TD in another country.  As Stuart indicated somewhere along this thread, there are laws similar to the US ADA in other countries.

DCJ001

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2011, 04:56:46 PM »
Perhaps Dave's explanation left too much room for interpretation.

When Dave said:
Quote
We are olbigated both morally and ethically to make REASONABLE efforts to accomodate those players' with special needs.

Dave stressed the word "reasonable." Having players make room for an overweight player or a player in a wheelchair would be a reasonable accommodation. In my opinion, allowing one person to use a calculator would not be reasonable because it opens the door to allow everyone to use a calculator which, in my opinion, goes against one of the fundamentals of the game - players should use their intellect as a part of the competitive process.

Dave also said:
Quote
A mirrored box to allow an individual to illuminate and magnify the cards can be outlawed if it offers an unfair advantage to the player with special needs.

In my opinion, allowing one player, and not the rest of the field, to use a calculator offers an unfair advantage to the one player.

Dave also said:
Quote
A calculator at the table would not be appropriate during the actual play of a hand any more than a computer or a private tutor.

In my opinion, Dave suggests that calculators, computers, and private tutors at the poker table are inappropriate.

And Dave said:
Quote
Accomodate, but not at the expense of the other players.

I should not need to explain what this means to anyone who speaks and understands the English language. But, after reading the responses of some of the individuals in this forum, I wonder if an explanation should be necessary. And I wonder a logical explanation would be understood.

Dave also said:
Quote
The point: Common sense reigns, you cannot make your hold'em table eight-handed just because two or more people are obese.

"Common sense." In this example, rather than reducing the number of players who should be at the table, which would not be a reasonable accommodation to the overweight players, because it changes the fundamentals of the game, the standard number of players should adjust their seats apart from each other or slightly away from the table so that the standard number of players has enough room, which would be a reasonable accommodation.

Stuart Murray

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2011, 05:40:11 PM »
DCJ001,

I believe you will find the questions are directed at Dave by others and myself on the last few threads, unless you are his PA or Deputy TD, or are otherwise authorized by him to comment and reply on said threads, perhaps we should wait on his reply to his interpretation of the discussion, rather as having a member quote a founding member with their own interpretation of what one has quoted.

pokerfish

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2011, 10:04:06 PM »
Having joined this thread rather late (and I apologize for not seeing it until now) I understand everyone's frustration with this situation. I agree with (and understand) Dave... I think. I believe that something as rare as this situation (where there may be a "reasonable" need for a calculator) should be handled individually and by the cardroom in question. In my 30 years in the poker world, I've never seen this come up. That said, I can't see where a TDA rule is needed for it. Common sense should prevail. If there truly is a need for this to allow someone to compete and using it doesn't slow down the game then it should be addressed privately within that cardroom and with that player. I've had events where someone has needed a special piece of equipment to pick up his cards (he was a quadriplegic) and not only was it allowed, but he always was given the one seat and the players and dealers all were happy to assist him. It is my opinion that when it is approached in a proper and reasonable manner, we can arrive at a common goal of having a level playing field that accommodates everyone, including those with special needs. There are many infirmities I've not heard of.... that doesn't mean they aren't real nor should we try to do the right thing by anyone who is challenged. My only caveat is that these accommodations may not take away from the fairness to the others.... as in Dave's example of playing 8 handed to accommodate obese players. That would not give the same event to these players as the other tables. Reasonable and common sense need prevail IMO.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2011, 03:39:44 PM »
The specific topic here is 'use of a calculator' in a hand, at the table or otherwise out of a hand. I almost feel like some of the positions being posted are at worst short sighted. While others are outlandish and extreme. Normal course of politics. ;)

Nevertheless, it reminds me of the PGA Tour vs Casey Martin. The PGA's stance that allowing Martin the use of a golf cart during tour events would be an "unfair advantage", is against the rules of the PGA and allowing such would alter the fundamentals of the game. Martin argued that under Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), that it requires entities operating “public accommodations” to make “reasonable modifications” in its policies “when … necessary to afford such … accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such … accommodations,”

Like the PGA Tour events, all current poker tours are both publicly participated in AND held in public accommodations.

Bottom line is, the use of a calculator at any time, is no more of an unfair advantage to anyone at the table than Martin's cart is in golf. Martin's case boiled down to one thing. Despite the PGA's "walking rule", would the use of a cart alter the fundamentals of game?
The court ruled 7-2 that it did not. Likewise, you have to ask yourself would the use of a calculator alter the fundamentals of the game of poker? IMO, no. The fundamentals are: Use of 52 card deck, hand rankings, betting action, number of players per table, etc. 

Summary of the Supreme Court Findings
Article from SI

So to answer your question do we need to make a specific rule for it? No... it's already been decided for you by the Supreme Court.
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Stuart Murray

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2011, 04:41:53 PM »
once again an outstanding response with some excellent reasoning and supporting information, thank you for your contribution to this post wsop,  It is very interesting reading the judgment which ties in with the ADA act of the US.  Some good reading.

Regards
Stuart

DCJ001

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2011, 08:20:44 PM »
I really didn't want to post in this thread again because some people, apparently, do not listen to reason. And it appears that, no matter how much common sense is used to justify a point of view, may people still look for any excuse to rationalize their position.

With regard to Casey Martin, and his effort to use a cart in the PGA, it was ruled that the use of the cart is a "reasonable accommodation" that allowed him to compete in the sport of golf, and that walking the course is not a fundamental aspect of the game.

When wsopmcgee said:
Quote
The fundamentals are: Use of 52 card deck, hand rankings, betting action, number of players per table, etc

he overlooked the facts that poker is not as simple as the use of 52 card deck, hand rankings, betting action, and the number of players per table. He also said "etc," which means "and other things." Other things that are fundamental aspects of poker include the ability to calculate the possibilities of possible hands existing based on the given board at any time, calculate pot odds in which the chance that a potential hand will be achieved compared to an amount to call a bet divided by the current pot, the ability to calculate of the size of the pot, at any point in a given hand, while considering other factors of the game, etc.

In Casey Martin's case, he was not granted authorization to be assisted in standing during his effort to strike the golf ball. Nor was he awarded the opportunity by the court to have a "do over" in case he lost balance, due to his disability, causing him to hit a bad shot because these elements are essential to the sport of golf.

Keep in mind that, in Andy's original question, he simply said that his girlfriend "has Dyscalculia and struggles with counting" and that "she just needs help counting up the chips to equal the relevant bet." A "reasonable accommodation," which is all that the ADA affords, is the minimal assistance to "count up the chips to equal the relevant bet," which may not be a fundamental aspect of the game. If the player who needs assistance needs the dealer to add up the chips when a player calls or raises, there should be no problem in doing that.

But allowing the use of a calculator, which may be used to keep track of the size of the pot, calculate the possibilities of possible hands existing based on the given board at any time, or calculate pot odds would be assisting the competitor in some of the fundamental and essential elements to the game of poker, which cannot be done.