Author Topic: 3 Bets and 4 Bets  (Read 8536 times)

Stuart Murray

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3 Bets and 4 Bets
« on: September 09, 2010, 09:57:57 AM »
Someone posted this question elsewhere regarding 3 bets and 4 bets in flop games, I answered the question with regard to NL and PL about 3/4 betting a raise however the person seems to think there is a diferent description during FL games.  Can someone describe to me how 3/ betting applies to FL (if it does) as my knowledge of FL is a little hazy (to say the least) in that respect.

Cheers
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 10:25:30 AM »
Stuart,

 I don't understand any of the question. I don't know what FL is.

MikeB

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 11:15:58 AM »
Someone posted this question elsewhere regarding 3 bets and 4 bets in flop games, I answered the question with regard to NL and PL about 3/4 betting a raise however the person seems to think there is a diferent description during FL games.  Can someone describe to me how 3/ betting applies to FL (if it does) as my knowledge of FL is a little hazy (to say the least) in that respect.
Hi Stu: As backgrounder, the number of raises is normally limited in a Fixed Limit (FL) format. The limits are designated by the house so players should be aware of what they are. Also, depending on the house rules, players heads-up in a fixed limit cash game MAY have no limit on number of raises, though this is not frequently seen in tournaments.

With that background in mind, the TDA has adopted Rule 34 to apply in tournament situations: "... In limit events there WILL BE a limit to raises even when heads-up until the tournament is down to two players; the house limit will apply..."   

This of course raises the question as to what common house limits for FL games are. Roberts uses the following, note the number of allowable raises is a function of the number of betting rounds for the type of game in play: (From Section 3, Betting and Raising):".... 4. In limit poker, for a pot involving three or more players who are not all-in, these limits on raises apply: (a) A game with three or more betting rounds allows a maximum of a bet and three raises. (b) A game with two betting rounds (such as lowball or draw) allows a maximum of a bet and four raises ...."

Nick C

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 12:37:27 PM »
Stuart,
 I want you to know why I was confused on the question. FL (fixed limit) is what you were looking for. There are games that are defined as flexible limit also. I know that you are not as versed in cash games as you are in tournament games, otherwise I know you would have all the answers you need. For your information, fixed limit and structured betting are the same. This is where each betting round has a fixed amount. Example; 5 and 10 limit texas hold'em, blinds 2/5, bets $5 (pre-flop) $5 after the flop, $10 after the turn and $10 after the river. Bets and raises can only be made in those incriments. UTG calls $5 BB, next player raises to $10 ($5 more, which is the only allowable raise). Next player raises to $15 ($5 more). On the last two betting rounds in a flop game, the structured limit doubles.

 Flexible limit is also defined as a "spread limit." Most casinos that feature 7-card stud will use a spread limit. An example would be a $1 to $5 stud. Players may wager any incriment within that range. Example 5th street, player in the 2 seat is high with two aces, he may check or bet $1, $2, $3, $4 or $5. There is usually a three raise limit, but some casinos use four, i.e. Ballagio for low limit stud.

  I would also like to add that years ago, at the Tropicana in Las Vegas, we actually spread a $2 to $10 hold'em game that went over with great success. I don't know why more cardrooms don't use it today.

 There are also mixed limit games, too. I hope this helps.

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 03:19:30 PM »
Just to add a little into this, RRoP states that in fixed limit games there is a maximum of one bet and three to six raises depending on which game you are playing.  (4 in studd 6 in low ball for example).  After which the betting is capped and players may only call.  If the action in that hand becomes heads up before the cap is applied then there will be no cap, if it goes heads up after the cap is applied then the cap will stand for that betting round.

This rules differs slightly with the TDA one which states there will be a cap on raises untill the tournament as a whole is heads up.

Lewis

Stuart Murray

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 03:57:38 PM »
yeh thanks guys,

I was (sort of) aware of that stuff but now know better but I think I clouded my question slightly.

The question was about describing 3 bets and 4 bets in limit poker - is that what each raise is/was called, for example the bet, raise, raise, raise, with the last raise being called a 4 bet as it's the penultimate and final raise during that street?

It's not something i've ever heard of before and the person was asking about it's interpretation at NL, which I would describe (4 bet) as a further raise/re-raise on the raise portion being faced, so for example NLHE 100/200 raise to 500, a 4 bet on the 500 total would be 1,700 total.

I am slightly confused asto it's interpretation (3 bets and 4 bets) at limit poker though, so are the further (2nd and 3rd raises during that street) called 3bets and 4bets?

Cheers for the input everyone!

Stuart

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 04:52:06 PM »
My understanding is that preflop the BB is a 1 bet, a raise is 2betting, re raise is 3 betting, a re re raise is 4 betting etc.....
This can still apply to fixed limit games, however in these the number of raises is important not the number of bets, so a 3 bet would be 2 raises.  It is also important to note that completing a bet does not count as a raise, so in stud if the lowest card brings in the minimum amount and someone completes to the full amount then this is not a raise.   

MikeB

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2010, 05:13:14 PM »
Just to add a little into this, RRoP states that in fixed limit games there is a maximum of one bet and three to six raises depending on which game you are playing.  (4 in studd 6 in low ball for example).  After which the betting is capped and players may only call.  If the action in that hand becomes heads up before the cap is applied then there will be no cap, if it goes heads up after the cap is applied then the cap will stand for that betting round.

This rules differs slightly with the TDA one which states there will be a cap on raises untill the tournament as a whole is heads up. Lewis

Exactly, that's the difference between cash game and tournament format rules on this issue.

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2010, 07:33:03 PM »
My bad, I thought that was present in TDA rules only, I didn't realise it was replicated in the tournament section of RRoP!!!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 07:35:21 PM by AleaLeedsCardRoom »

Nick C

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2010, 07:54:24 PM »
I have to say that I've never even heard of bets and raises described that way. I do know that a structured game with a three raise limit is; the initial bet, followed by three raises. Because of that, in a $5 betting round the cap would be $20. The initial bet plus three $5 raises. There are other games that allow more raises but that is because they have less betting rounds, like draw. Many cardrooms allow unlimited raises when action is head to head, but there are conditions that do not allow unlimited raises. If three players are involved in the last round of betting and a player makes the final raise (3rd raise) thinking that he has capped the bet, only to eliminate a player leaving the action heads-up. No more raises will be allowed. There are other raise rules in some casinos that even restrict the number of raises in no-limit cash games. Once the limit for raises has been met, each raise thereafter must equal half the pot. This will guarantee (for the purpose of time) that an end to the raises will occur in a reasonable amount of time.
 The statement by AleaLeedsCardRoom is true in fixed limit ($10 and $20) or any other structured game. However in a spread limit it is different. A player may "bring-it-in" for $1 in a $1 to $5 limit game and the cap could actually be $4 if the next three raises are only $1 each. That qualifies because of the three raise limit.

chet

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 09:17:53 PM »
To our friends outside the US:

Is it possible that the terminology being used in this thread is unique to the game outside the US?  There are a lot of terms in various languages outside the US that are not familiar to US players and I am wondering if the terms here might fall within that arena.

In years past, when Fixed Limit poker was MUCH more common than today, I frequently heard players describe the amount of their raise as "3bets" or "4 bets".  I have NEVER heard those terms used in No Limit or Pot Limit.

Oddvark

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 10:03:33 PM »
I play in the US (in the Los Angeles area), and the "3 bet" and "4 bet" terminology seems quite common to me.

In fixed limit games, players will often say "3 bets" or "4 bets" to mean pretty much exactly what they say -- e.g., in a 4/8 limit game, if on a $4 betting round, you make it "3 bets", the total bet is 3 x $4 bets = $12.  Of course, you can only make it "3 bets" if someone has made it "2 bets" before you.  So "2 bets" is the equivalent of a raise, "3 bets" is a re-raise, and "4 bets" (or "cap" in HE or Omaha) is a re-re-raise.  In practice, it's clearer to everyone at the table in a Fixed Limit game when the "2/3/4 bet" terminology is used.  You don't have to remember how many people have said "raise" or count chips.  If you know what betting round you are on, and the number of bets you are up to, everything is crystal clear.

As for NL/PL games, I rarely if ever hear anyone say "3 bet" or "4 bet" at the table while playing.  Those terms have no meaning when playing because the do not define the amount being wagered.

However, when discussing strategy for NL/PL games, people often use the "3 bet"/"4 bet" terminology as a short-hand way of referring to re-raises and re-re-raises respectively.  Using the #, quickly gives you an idea of the situation.  So if you go to the twoplustwo message boards, you'll see lots of discussions about whether to "flat" (i.e., call) or "3 bet" (re-raise) when a player in front of you has raised.  Again, you wouldn't use those terms at the table, but they do seem to have become standard in strategy discussions.

As an example, here's a random thread from TwoPlusTwo:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87/high-stakes-mtt/2-main-event-hands-827948/

HAND 1:
hand before i double chipsteela in a standard hand( possibly some meta considerations to that). So i open to 6k at 12/24 from mid and get 3 bet to 16k from a french kid with 160k stack.I have 400k. He has been fairly active. Ive been pretty nitty but opening up some in the last 20 min, i have not 4 bet once today and have folded to about 50% of 3 bets. I hold AQo, what u like?

Hand 2:
2 hands left in the day. I have 340k. I open cutoff to 6k at 12/24 with TT, Big blind( middle aged guy, kinda clicky in some weird spots but mostly solid) has 210k and makes it 15k straight. I flat. I think in position in this tourney this is correct. Flop J52r he bets 17.2k i call. Turn 2 C/C. River 8, he best 30k, what u like?


Nick C

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Re: 3 Bets and 4 Bets
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 02:51:54 PM »
Wow! I thought that we were restricted to english only! I've been playing poker for over 50 years and I had a tough time following that link.