Author Topic: Table Balance and Button Movement  (Read 9576 times)

Stuart Murray

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Table Balance and Button Movement
« on: June 21, 2010, 07:36:16 AM »
This happened in a tournament on sunday.

I was called to the table following a balance, in which seats 5,6 &7 had just been filled when going from 3 to 2 tables. the previous hand before movement seat 5 was SB, 8 BB 4 Button.  The player in seat 5 busted on 21st causing the balance.

The button went to seat 5 (new player), SB 8, BB 9.  At which point I was called.

My thoughts were that since seat 5, 6, 7 had just sat down the button could move forward to seat 7 to allow all three players into the hand. Which caused an argument so I eventually continued with the button on seat 5.

TDA says the only place a player cannot get a hand is between the SB and Button, which would suggest I should not skip the button forward from the busted seat.

Opinions please

Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Table Balance and Button Movement
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 07:41:56 AM »
Stuart,
 I liked your original call, moving the button to seat #7, just to keep the blinds moving properly. I don't know why they would complain about that, it' not like they were moving into the blinds.

higavin

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Re: Table Balance and Button Movement
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 10:35:31 PM »
The description was a little hard to uerstand until I stepped into my poker room and mapped it out.

Stuart, please correct me if I am wrong as I restate the table before seat 5 busted out.

Seat4 is the Button, Seat 5 is the SB and Seat 8 is the BB, leaving Seats 6 and 7 empty.

If thet is correct, the button should be placed on Seat 5 as per the rules.  Seat 6 and 7 should sit out that first hand and seat 8 should be the SB with Seat 9 the BB.

I know you were probably trying to get everyone into the hand but the problem with getting creative with the rules is some players will begin to expect it. 

Seats 6 and 7 were requied to sit out since they were sitting betweent eh SB and the BB.  It is unusual to have two players sitting out after a move but it really is within the rules.


Mrsvelvet

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Re: Table Balance and Button Movement
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 03:58:20 AM »
Hi Stuart

It's clear to me that your intentions to keep play moving along was meant in the best interest of the game & I think generally a good idea, it is also unusual to have 2 players re-seating in those positions and you probably won't see it happen again for a long time, however the rule is quite clear that a Player(I have always took this to mean Players to) seated into those positions should sit out the hands etc etc.

By trying to "adjust" the ruling as in this scenario and even though your intention was good and certainly not designed to be a disadvantage to any of the players, I think you opened yourself up to the complaints that were then made, as in this case, the complaining players were actually correct about the rules. (even if it was a needless argument)

We as TD's try to engrave the rules in players minds (which is a good thing) and sometimes players will then quote the rules back to us (can be good or bad depending on the interpretation ect) but with this rule I would say lets leave well alone. Its very simple (so players do remember it) and if you try to change it (for any reason) they will question your decision (as in this case) leading to a discussion / complaint / bad feeling and so on which in the main would be a negative waste of your time as TD and time on the players Clock to. Chances are, by the time your done with the discussion you would also lose any benefits from making the decision in the first place.

Just my thoughts..

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Table Balance and Button Movement
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 08:28:26 PM »
I think Stuarts call is fine and within the rules, not against them as has been stated:  RRoP states that there are two methods to manage the blinds and button (Version 11, Button and blind use, point 2 a&b):
a) A Moving button, the button moves on one position each hand and the blinds are posted accordingly, this may resulti n more than on big blind.
or
b) Dead button, The big blind is posted by the person next due for it, and the small blind and button are positioned accordingly, this may result in a bdead button or small blind.

TDA rule# 24 says a dead button will be used.

This means that the button can skip the seats and let the new players play their first hand, as it is the BIG BLIND that moves on a seat and not the button.

Lewis

higavin

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Re: Table Balance and Button Movement
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2010, 06:32:08 PM »
I think Stuarts call is fine and within the rules, not against them as has been stated:  RRoP states that there are two methods to manage the blinds and button (Version 11, Button and blind use, point 2 a&b):
a) A Moving button, the button moves on one position each hand and the blinds are posted accordingly, this may resulti n more than on big blind.
or
b) Dead button, The big blind is posted by the person next due for it, and the small blind and button are positioned accordingly, this may result in a bdead button or small blind.

TDA rule# 24 says a dead button will be used.

This means that the button can skip the seats and let the new players play their first hand, as it is the BIG BLIND that moves on a seat and not the button.

Lewis

Under the dead button rule, the button always moves, but if it moves to an open seat that had been occupied the previous hand, it is dead (no player sitting there).  The BB moves and if there is a player who piad the BB the hand before, that player is now the SB.

Sturart refers to this situation as a balance but also says the tournamant ewent from 3 tables to 2 so it is in reality a broken table, covered by TDA Rule #5.

TDA Rule #5 says:

Quote
5.   Breaking Tables
Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button. The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

Seat 5 had been the SB the hand before, it was scheduled to be the button so that is the seat that gets the button.  The players who took seats 6 and 7 were seated between the button and the SB.  The BB had been on seat 8 so that seat is now the SB. Leaving seats 6 and 7 in between the button and the SB.  It seems strange with 2 players sitting out but if you apply the rules as written the same way everytime, you are consistent and that is a good thing.