Author Topic: call?  (Read 9915 times)

gabesz

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call?
« on: June 28, 2010, 11:13:48 PM »
Hi all,

NLH tournament post flop action with 2 players, the first to act bet 4000 then the second player throw 2 chips in the middle (1500), then he realized the bet was 4000,what he can do?????he had headphones and he said he did not see and did not hear how much is a bet exactly, he tought the bet is only 1500....what he can do???

thank you

Stuart Murray

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Re: call?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 03:44:54 AM »
under TDA rules he can retract his bet and reconsider his actions, but I would bind him to passive action only on the flop - i.e. make him only allowed to call or fold, unless the action changes.

I like the WSOP rule that if he threw in the 1,500 facing 4,000 the 1,500 would have to stay in regardless of whether he is going to call or fold.

Stuart

pineforest

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Re: call?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2010, 05:46:24 AM »
I would rule that the 1500 stays and his only options are to complete the call or fold.

Nick C

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Re: call?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2010, 06:40:51 AM »
 How can we force someone to leave chips in the pot when it was obvious that he didn't understand the bet in front of him? There are exceptions to almost every rule, and I think as long as the bet was retracted before the next player reacts, then I think the correct call is to let the player take their bet back. Of course if the next player takes any action, then it's too late. I think that is one of the reasons why the substantial action rule was created. To protect a player from an unclear bet. What would you do, if Player A bet 200 and Player B pushed out 1200 and Player C said raise and pushed 400 into the pot? You would have to assume that Player C was unaware of the raise, right?
 Players have a responsibility to pay attention to the action, but I think that the dealer is just as responsible to control the action. In my opinion, an honest mistake should be handled with a warning. If the same player repeats the infraction again, that is a different story. Repeat offenders, or those acting with intent should be forced to leave their bet in the pot, or call, as pineforest suggested.

That's the way I see it.

pineforest

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Re: call?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2010, 01:35:20 PM »
IMO it is the players responsiblity to know what is going on in the game. Even if the dealer did not anounce the raise.  Once those chips touch the felt they are going to stay.  If player has headphones on and did't hear the raise or if their sunglasses are so dark they don't see it or if they just arn't paying attention that is their own fault and I do not give them a break because of it.  If you do give them a break in this situation  you are opening the door for someone to take an angle shot.  In your example where the bet is 200 and one player raise to 1200 and the next player states raise and puts in 400.  I rule that they must make the minimum raise of 1000 to 2200. no if ands or buts.  Paying attention is part of the game.

Nick C

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Re: call?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2010, 02:56:20 PM »
pineforest,
 I don't agree with you at all. As far as all the talk about players taking "angle shots," in my opinion those are the players you don't need in your tournament to begin with. Let the players play and enjoy the game. I think that repeat offenders should be reprimanded, as I mentioned, but to force a player to raise when it was obvious he did not understand the bet, is not a good decision.


pineforest

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Re: call?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2010, 03:21:47 PM »
Nick,
Nothing is obvious.  Maybe he said raise to get a read on the player who bet and now pretends he didn't know the action.  that is an angle shot and I will not re open his options.  It is the players responsibility to pay attention to the action.  Maybe if it is a home game, but we need to be consistant in real tournaments and when players wear headphone and dark sunglasses sometimes they miss things and it is their own fault and should not be given a second chance after stating their action because we truly do not know if it is an obvious mistake or not and it should be treated the same way all the time.

I agree you don't need players taking angle shot but be realistic. they are poker players and they are going to do things like this

Nick C

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Re: call?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2010, 04:24:40 PM »
pineforest,
 We could go back and forth forever on this. I guess until we enforce the rules with conviction, these players will keep pressing to see how much they can continue to get away with. If I felt that strongly about players wearing dark sunglasses or electronic devices, I would make a house rule that will give them no recourse to retract any bet that is unclear to them.

pineforest

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Re: call?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2010, 04:59:02 PM »
maybe we could go back and forth.  We just have to call it like we see it. 

By the way, I have no problem with players wearing sunglasses and headphones.

I do have a problem with players who don't pay attention and get mad about a ruling that doesn't allow them a second chance on their action.  I'm sorry Mr. Player that you made a mistake, Maybe it is an honest mistake or maybe it is a shot.  I don't know.  I will deal with it the same way I always do in this situatoin.  All he need to do is ask the dealer what the action is rather than acting without all the information.

Peace

Mrsvelvet

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Re: call?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2010, 06:42:59 PM »
mmmm Silent action again,,,see other thread  ;D

I think you both have valid points, if I had no prior knowledge of this player (so I couldn't justify "a Shot" allegation etc) and this was a players 1st offence, I would allow the chips to be retracted but issue the player with a "gentle verbal" warning, It is the players responsibility to be fully aware of what is going on and if unclear they should use their brain and check with the dealer before acting. However next time I would give him the option to complete or fold but those chips would remain in the pot. Again, and the penalties come in.

Personally I don't have an issue with Sunglasses but Walkmans ect I only allow providing it does not cause or prove to be a distraction to the dealer or other players at the table (and yes I have a house rule for that to  ::) )