Author Topic: fouled deck , both cards in same hand  (Read 16832 times)

hoosier418

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fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« on: June 19, 2010, 03:56:44 PM »
 Happened last night about 5 hands into the tournament . Some betting preflop and 3 players see the flop. Player 1 bets 300 , player 2 raises to 600 , player 3 calls and player 1 calls .
 Turn card is exsposed and player 1 bets 1200 , player 2 took some time and announced all in . Player 3 folds and player 1 calls the all in . The hands are tuned over and player 2 has 2 ten of diamonds in his hand.
 I stopped the game and the clock to try and figure out what to do. I felt that the two remaining players should chop the pot. Player 3 argued that he should get his chips back also . I felt he should not because he had folded his hand and was no longer entitled to anything in the pot.
 After reading some rulings on this site . I'm wondering if player 2's hand should have been declared a dead hand . Similar to the situation where plyers have 3 cards in their hand.
 With it being a "friendly game". Players 1 and 2 were OK with giving player 3 back his 600 and chopping what was left . So that is what was done. Now I'm leaning more towards the dead hand ruling. Any thoughts ?

 If you're wondering . It was a new deck and cards were counted and spread out by order and suit before the game. The two cards were appearently stuck together until shuffling started.

Stuart Murray

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2010, 06:20:21 PM »
Under RROP All bets are void, the hand is void and everyone who put money in the pot is refunded in full.


4. If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule).
5. A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal.

Hope that clears it up for you.  You may need to inspect the deck once this is found and for example see if perhaps the 10 of hearts is missing.  If you believe the player is being collusive then he must be disqualified.

Regards
Stuart

MaxH

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2010, 05:37:32 AM »
Hi Stuart,
So a player goes all-in holding the 10s. If someone calls the bet the all-in player gets the chips back because all bets are void; however, if nobody calls  the all-in player wins with an illegal hand!
This seems to be a no lose bet and I always thought that any player with an illegal hand - after significant action had taken place - had a dead hand.
Best,
Max

Stuart Murray

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2010, 10:53:53 AM »
No not at-all, all chips are returned to their respective betters.  This includes returning every ante and blind.

Stuart

Nick C

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 11:40:06 AM »
Sorry, the rules for returning all chips are for a situation when two tens of diamonds come up on the flop (for example), or Player 1 has a ten of diamonds and player 2 has a ten of diamonds. I think the situation that is described in the original question puts Player 2 in a bad spot. He was the only player that knew that the deck was fouled and he still tried to win the pot. Max is right, friendly game or not, I would question the integrity of Player 2. The other players should get their money back. I might even make player 2 leave his chips in the pot for the next hand. (I know I'll get some great responses with that one). The best thing that could happen would be for Player 2 to get so mad, that he quits the game and never returns.

That's the way I see it.

chet

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 11:51:31 AM »
Nick:  I have to disagree somewhat.  There are many, many times on the TV where a player will look at the first down card and then only look at enough of the 2nd down card to ascertain its value, but not the suit.  I know that once in a while, I have done the same thing, so that I would only know that the 2nd card was a red or black 10, but not the suit.  I am not necessarily defending player 2, but I can certainly understand how it might happen.

As to the rest of Max' question, you have to differentiate between a fouled hand and a fouled deck.  If it was just player 2's hand that was fouled (by his having 3 down cards for example) then I would agree that his hand is dead.  However, in this case the entire deck is fouled, hence it is treated as a total misdeal and ALL wagers are returned and the hand replayed.

Hope this helps!

Nick C

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 12:50:32 PM »
Chet,
 I like your reply. The key issue that you bring up is still intent. In your example I can understand that a player could look at two red tens in their hand and not think that they are both diamonds. If that was the case, then the money back is the only answer. Imagine if Player 2 did win the hand and the two tens remaind for who knows how many more deals. Counting the cards periodically does help. but what if there were two tens of diamonds (like Stuart said) and no ten of hearts, you would still have 52 cards wouldn't you. Let's hope that that doesn't happen too often. I do recall when we opened the Poker Room in Irving New York for the Seneca Nation of Indians in 2003. We opened a new gross of Kem poker cards and I told the dealers to "spade" all of the decks that we were using on opening night so they would be in order. Spades, hearts, clubs, and diamonds. One deck straight from the factory had two aces of spades. I've seen marked cards and defects, but never a duplicate like that. The best situation for the original question is what Chet mentioned, that the player was not aware that he held two identical cards. Good discussion.
Nick C

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2010, 01:08:34 PM »
In my opinion the hand would be dead, just as if 3 hole cards had been discovered, I see no reason to protect players and return their chips, just becuase they dont pay attention to the cards they are dealt.  Either through being too lazy to look properly, or just becuase they are trying to be "cool"for the cameras like the tv players are.  Its very simple to look at your two hole cards and see that they are not identical when you are dealt them at the start of the hand.

Lewis

chet

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2010, 06:09:39 PM »
Lewis:

Not to be a PITA, but you are clearly wrong.  Please see the original response in this tread from Stuart Murray in which he quotes the applicable rule from Robert's Rules of Poker.  It is perfectly clear that the deck is fouled.  In which case the rule clearly states that all action is returned to each player and the hand is null and void.  I understand where you are coming from and if it was only player 2's hand that was fouled and not the whole deck, I would agree.  However, IMO a fouled deck takes precedence over a fouled hand.

Hope this helps!

MikeB

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2010, 10:04:15 PM »
This is an extremely rare occurence to say the least. While I've seen numerous fouled decks I can say I've never seen a player deliberately table a hand with two identical cards after aggressively betting with them. Just by sheer odds of occurence, usually you see a fouled deck in the form of two board cards, a board card and a player's hole card, or hole cards of two separate hands, and the players are gambling in good faith and aren't actually aware of the situation until the exposure occurs.

What's the remedy? I note the following in Robert's second paragraph on the matter: "A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal."

Note the word "may" used repeatedly here. Whenever that occurs it usually indicates that the author proposes it be up to the TD's discretion at the time, weighing all the facts at hand.  Either that, or it's such a rare occurence that the author hasn't taken it far enough to finalize a definitive position. Having never actually faced this exact scenario, I'd have to say my reaction towards the player would be quite negative to say the least. Fortunately, in an all-in situation all hands should be exposed on showdown and this ruse exposed, but with less than an all-in, I find the idea that you can knowingly put a large chunk of someone's stack in jeopardy without jeopardizing your own inconsistent with the basic principle of gambling, not to mention the best interest of the game... Perhaps this is a fair subject for discussion at the next summit. Everyone I think agrees that in a "no fault" situation, all monies are to be refunded in the event of such a deck. But when there is deliberate malfeasance on a player's part (i.e. Roberts' "freeroll" attempt), under what conditions are they still entitled to part of the refund, when is their share forfeited and to who, when is there a replay of the hand, if ever, and what range of penalties might they be facing?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 10:28:36 PM by MikeB »

MaxH

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 06:45:07 AM »
The 'fouled hand v fouled deck' expanation is useful but in the circumtancess I outlined (and where you play with common cards that could be switched) it requires the TD to mind-read the intentions of the player. This will always cause arguments if a penalty is given!
I also accept that peeking at the corners of cards may show, for example, two red 10s but not the suits. Is this not similar though to the player who does not look at their cards until it is their turn to act and discovers in late position they have three cards? Are they both holding an illegal hand and, therefore, should both suffer the consequences?
Best,
Max

Nick C

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 07:04:19 AM »
I have to agree with Lewis, Max and Mike on this one. The only player that knew there were two identical cards in the deck was Player 2. I don't understand what the talk of a fouled deck as opposed to a fouled hand has to do with anything. Any player that raises "in the dark" or makes a "blind raise," has to suffer the consequences. I also believe that most of the TDA members that submit a question, are looking for a little more input. I think they have read the rules, but many are unclear. I agree with most of what Mike wrote, but I really don't think that it warrants any time at the next TDA meeting. I have been dealing for a long time and that will probably not happen again, but if it does, and I'm on the floor, Player 2 is the only player that did anything wrong. The punishment should suit the crime!
That's the way I see it.
Nick C

Stuart Murray

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 07:28:29 AM »
Gentlemen,

You all have a valid argument regarding the player who did/did not check his hole cards properly - that is where the problem lies.  In order to remain transparent and consistent with regard to two cards of identical suit being discovered it must be ruled a mis-deal.

RROP rules are very specific and also deal with the issue of the player knowing about the defective deck, and Mike is quite correct in suggesting that it should be discussed further, as the chips staying in for the next pot is rather outdated IMO, a new hand is just that.  The only time chips should not be with a player is when they are impounded subject to camera/further investigation of an incident.

Killing a hand because a player has three cards is very much different to killing a hand which is part of a defective deck.  I just don't agree that we should discriminate against a defective deck whether it is board cards, several players hands, or one players hand.

Stuart

MaxH

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 09:53:23 AM »
Hi Stuart,
If we pre-suppose that there is a defective deck I agree with you but we don't always know this is the case. There is the possibility in my games (player dealt) that a card could be switched at some time during the game. Also, I can't really see the difference between a player being responsible for having three cards and a player not seeing the suits of their cards. Actually, the player dealt three cards could argue that it was 'defective dealing' :-)))
I have seen this twice recently; once in a casino and once in a league poker game. In the league game I was lucky to call the player's all-in bet because the cards were shown - if I had folded there would have been a considerable hole in my stack. The player said - and I believe him - that he only noticed the numbers not the suits. The fact is that he had a free bet - if the cards were shown his chips were returned; if my hand was folded no one was the wiser. This surely cannot be fair to the player playing a legal hand.  IMHO I think any illegal hand should be ruled dead (unless it's a brand new defective deck). We don't ask players to be responsible for much, surely taking responsibility for the two cards dealt to them isn't too much.
Best,
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 12:11:20 AM by MaxH »
Max

higavin

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 09:19:45 AM »
Since we are relying on RRoP here as we must, there is another rule that affects the outcome of the hand.

Under "Irregularities" the same section the two rules Stuart quotes in the 2nd post.

Quote
9.     If you play a hand without looking at all of your cards, you assume the liability of having an irregular card or an improper joker.

The player with 2 10 of diamonds failed to protect his interest in the hand by not looking at both cards.  It's the players responsibility to pay attention.

Significant action has taken place, a player has folded their hand.  It's too late to cancel the hand IMO.  Failing to look at both cards is fatal in this instance.  Just becasue we see "pros" do it on TV does make it acceptible practice in real life.

I woud call his hand dead and award the pot to the only player remaining with a live hand.

BTW, I know from experience that posters tend to evaluate a nother posters credibility based on the number of posts they have made.  I am aware that this is my 5th post on this forum however I have over 2600 posts on 2+2 under another screen name and I have a solid reputation there.  I have been a dealer for nearly 4 1/2 years and I am also a floor supervisor part time.