Author Topic: fouled deck , both cards in same hand  (Read 16808 times)

Nick C

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 09:43:14 AM »
higavin,
 I agree with you in all that you say. I like keeping Player 2's chips in the pot for the next hand better than killing the hand, but I can't disagree with your call. I'm glad that you put the blame on Player 2. That's the only way I see it, too. As far as the number of posts, I think the quality and good advice, has precedence over the number of posts. I am semi-retired so I have a lot more time on my hands than most. I don't have all the answers, but that will never stop me from offering my opinion. My intention is to only give what I believe to be sound advice and I am always willing to debate a situation where we may disagree.

Thanks for your input
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 02:47:00 PM by Nick C »

MaxH

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 11:03:50 AM »
BTW, I know from experience that posters tend to evaluate a nother posters credibility based on the number of posts they have made.  I am aware that this is my 5th post on this forum however I have over 2600 posts on 2+2 under another screen name and I have a solid reputation there.  I have been a dealer for nearly 4 1/2 years and I am also a floor supervisor part time.

higavin,
I recognised the name as I know you from the other rules forum - thanks for your input.

Calling the hand dead is exactly the action I would take should it happen in future because it is simply not fair to the player with the legal hand.
Best,
Max

MikeB

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 11:10:10 AM »
Since we are relying on RRoP here as we must, there is another rule that affects the outcome of the hand.Under "Irregularities" the same section the two rules Stuart quotes in the 2nd post.  
Quote
9.     If you play a hand without looking at all of your cards, you assume the liability of having an irregular card or an improper joker.

The player with 2 10 of diamonds failed to protect his interest in the hand by not looking at both cards.  It's the players responsibility to pay attention.

Significant action has taken place, a player has folded their hand.  It's too late to cancel the hand IMO.  Failing to look at both cards is fatal in this instance.  Just becasue we see "pros" do it on TV does make it acceptible practice in real life.

I woud call his hand dead and award the pot to the only player remaining with a live hand.
My only problem with this approach is that we do have a fouled deck. This is a house error that puts all players at risk. Players have a right to expect the house will use a deck that has only one of each card... For this reason, at the end of the day, I'd prefer to refund all players but the "culprit" first. Then award the remaining pot to the live player, he was the one put at the disproportionate risk by the culprits freeroll attempt. Again, I've never actually faced this exact situation and with the variety of proposed solutions and lack of precise regulations it's a candidate for rules review by the TDA membership.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 11:13:10 AM by MikeB »

higavin

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 02:48:32 PM »
Since we are relying on RRoP here as we must, there is another rule that affects the outcome of the hand.Under "Irregularities" the same section the two rules Stuart quotes in the 2nd post.  
Quote
9.     If you play a hand without looking at all of your cards, you assume the liability of having an irregular card or an improper joker.

The player with 2 10 of diamonds failed to protect his interest in the hand by not looking at both cards.  It's the players responsibility to pay attention.

Significant action has taken place, a player has folded their hand.  It's too late to cancel the hand IMO.  Failing to look at both cards is fatal in this instance.  Just becasue we see "pros" do it on TV does make it acceptible practice in real life.

I woud call his hand dead and award the pot to the only player remaining with a live hand.
My only problem with this approach is that we do have a fouled deck. This is a house error that puts all players at risk. Players have a right to expect the house will use a deck that has only one of each card... For this reason, at the end of the day, I'd prefer to refund all players but the "culprit" first. Then award the remaining pot to the live player, he was the one put at the disproportionate risk by the culprits freeroll attempt. Again, I've never actually faced this exact situation and with the variety of proposed solutions and lack of precise regulations it's a candidate for rules review by the TDA membership.

This sounds like a creative and appropriate solution to an unusual situation.  One of those times when Rule One definitely applies.

patiolanterns

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2010, 12:20:23 AM »
I am aware that this discussion took place earlier in the year, however, this happened tonight, and I'm still not clear if I made the right call or not?

5 people in the hand, flop comes 5H, KC and 3S, player 1, 2 check, player 3 bets heavy, player 4 folds, 5 calls and 1 & 2 fold.

Turn and river are irrelevant, as player 3 bet the turn, player 5 called as well as the river.
Now, when the hands were tabled, player 3 had a 5H in his hand, giving him 3 5's, but 2 of them were 5H's, and player 5 had 2 pair.
It was then that it was noted that there were 2 5H's in play, i made the call that the hand be split between remaining players, as player 3 said he didn't realize that it was the same card as he was holding, player 5 wanted the whole pot, and the other 3 players wanted their money back?

Was this the right call?
Or should everything have been given back to all players, including blinds?


chet

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2010, 08:35:59 AM »
Patiolanterns:

In response, I have to repeat part of my earlier post in this thread.  I believe your solution was incorrect.  Since the entire deck was fouled as opposed to an individual hand, the correct solution, if possible, was to declare the entire hand dead and refund the player's money.  Taking into consideration that player 3 knew, or should have known, of the fouled deck, I would have seriously considered not refunding that player and putting that amount into the next pot.  (See the 6/20 post by MikeB).

Hope this helps!!

patiolanterns

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2010, 01:08:35 PM »
Thank you for your response.
I did read all the responses to this thread, and to be honest, i was more confused than when I started to read it?
I thought i was in error, was just clarifying for future reference, this was the first instance that I remember happening in the past 5 years.


It was actually funny, that the person that kept bitching about the whole thing, the whole night, was the guy that I should have penalized in the first place for not bringing the fouled deck to light, and was trying to buy the pot.

Thanks again
Pat

patiolanterns

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2010, 01:22:31 PM »
I might also point out that i am losing my mind, i just found a thread from earlier this year, almost the same situation.
My apologies.
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=139.msg823#msg823

Dave Lamb

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Re: fouled deck , both cards in same hand
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2010, 08:45:44 PM »
I have looked at one card many times and raised or called with the reasonable expectation that I do not need to be concerned with the integrity of the deck. I believe the game is honest, the correct number of cards are present and I am responsible for having the correct number of cards in my hand. I have never actually seen any rule set that required me to look at the face of my downcards to play. We encourage a little mindless gambling in our poker games.
I do not see how I could ever be confident that I knew a player intentionally tried to benefit from having two cards of the same suit unless he admitted it. When the deck is fouled, all money/chips should be returned to the players without trying to ascertain their motives.