Author Topic: Too many burned cards mistake  (Read 9133 times)

Vincenzo Morabito

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Too many burned cards mistake
« on: March 22, 2023, 04:11:28 PM »
In this unusual situation: -Turn- Two cards are burned by mistake and the dealer realizes that three cards have been burned in total instead of two, when the face up turn card has been dealt on the board. (So the dealer burned two cards after flop and before deal a not real bad turn)
At the floorman's question, the dealer is not sure about the burned card's order. So any of the three cards could be the real turn.
How do you manage it?
Thanks for aswering.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 03:59:21 AM by Vincenzo Morabito »

Dave Miller

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Re: Too many burned cards mistake
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2023, 07:20:41 AM »
As I understand it, the TDA is moving away from "preserving the sanctity of the sequence of the deck."

Therefore, trying to return the extra burn card to the deck to be used as the turn as intended is overkill.

Furthermore, since you're suggesting that we don't know which card is actually the turn, picking one at random is meaningless. Since the card that was turned over as the turn is just as random as any of the three burns, you might as well let it play as the turn.

Lastly, the purpose of the burn is to protect the next card.

To return the incorrect turn card to the deck, implies that you are going to use it as the next burn. Doing so unnecessarily provides information about a card not in play. Returning it and shuffling it into the stub provides that same info.

Bottom line, let the incorrect turn play. And burn a fourth card before dealing the river - even though you know that the fourth burn card was the intended river card.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 07:21:58 AM by Dave Miller »
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Nick C

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Re: Too many burned cards mistake
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2023, 03:06:43 AM »
Hello, Vincenzo,

Your situation is always a difficult one to handle. These dealer errors will almost always alter the outcome of the hand.

Our duty, as florrpersons, is to protect the integrity of the game by making a decision that will award the pot to the player  who would have won the hand if no error had occurred.

This is easier said than done.

The good news is...this should be a rare occurrance and hopefully not something that your dealer repeats.

Dave Miller may be correct that the TDA is moving away from "preserving the sanctity of the sequence of the deck."

I found this in Roberts Rules and it is the best simple ruling for an unfortunate error.

      If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered
      before betting action is started for that round.

In Vincenzo's example it could not be determined which was the improper burn card. The problem here is, we know that the turn card is wrong.

I have experienced this in clasrooms when training new dealers. I found that the fairest way to protect any players from further financial loss would be to suspend any further betting.

Every hand is different. In a hand with little or no action, players might agree to take their chips back and deal a new hand. There could be a situation when a player has flopped the "nuts" and the turn and river would be irrelevant!

Turning a river card, that we know would never have come without the error, somehow does not seem to be the best solution.






« Last Edit: March 28, 2023, 03:10:26 AM by Nick C »

Sammyy90

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Re: Too many burned cards mistake
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2023, 10:42:48 AM »
In my casino we have cameras that can back up our decision when situations like this occur, they have enough high resolution to see a hair on the table.
So to determine which card would be the real next burn card wouldn't be too difficult.

However in my oppinion there is only 2 ways this could have been done:
1 - The dealer took down 2 burn cards at the same time instead of 1.
2 - The dealer burnt cards 2 times.
Both of the situations will present you with a "new" shown card.

Since these 2 situations completely changes what the "real" card would be I would assume its best to play out the card has been tabled. If you decide to go on a 50/50 then you are just giving more information to the table than needed (the tabled card is shown but wont play).

We always aim to have the correct board as strict as possible.

Nick C

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Re: Too many burned cards mistake
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2023, 10:14:25 AM »
Sammyy90

I am curious as to how you feel about suspending further betting? I am not familiar with your 50/50 mention...can you explain?

Sammyy90

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Re: Too many burned cards mistake
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2023, 09:10:53 AM »
Sammyy90

I am curious as to how you feel about suspending further betting? I am not familiar with your 50/50 mention...can you explain?

Due to the river not being protected anymore, I would suspend betting and present the next card without burnt any cards. That way we stay close to the correct board.
This is sadly very inflicting to the game and I dont like it, but we have our hands tied here.
I would like to inflict the hand as little as possible and if possible when the decision is being made the floor should check the next card for any indications that it could be marked or shown in any way. In a cash game table I would most likely let the betting continue after good observation, in a tournament I would suspend the betting without question.

About the 50/50 I mean the choice of picking one of the two last burnt cards at random. You have a 50% chance to be wrong or right if you decide to take the tabled card out of the game (one of the 2 last burnt cards is the correct card that should be the turn). And if you do this you accept the fact that the table has gotten more information (the tabled wrong card) than neccesary, choosing one of the 2 burnt cards will give even more information to the hand instead of playing out the first played card. And you still have a 50% chance of being wrong.
As I mentioned previously my casino has  top quality cameras, so for me the decision would be to always bring the correct board forward. In this case WITH an extra shown card due to a mistake.

Nick C

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Re: Too many burned cards mistake
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2023, 07:10:31 AM »
Good to hear back from you, Sammyy90

Thanks for explaining the 50/50

I guess your sophisticated cameras would help.

Dealing in Vegas in the early 80's...we did not use cameras in our poker rooms. I'm sure there was surveillance, but I never looked at a video to make a floor decision.