1
Suggestions for New TDA Rules and amendments to existing rules for 2021 Summit / Will there be a 2021 TDA Summit?
« Last post by BillM16 on April 09, 2021, 05:24:17 AM »Will there be a 2021 TDA Summit?
Recent Posts
2
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by Nick C on February 01, 2021, 10:47:01 AM »If you play out all of the scenarios we have discussed you will have a better understanding of what I'm saying. I guess we will have to disagree on this one.
3
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by BillM16 on February 01, 2021, 09:23:13 AM »If you hold off on exposing the hand that's not contesting that side pot, the problem you speak of can never happen!
This statement is obviously false. It is also the most important point of the rule. The crux of the rule is really quite simple: A hand that is properly tabled cannot be killed if it is a winner. So, table all hands at showdown when there is an all-in player. Those hands cannot be killed when they are a winner of any part of the pot.
The exact opposite of the above quoted statement occurs. Any hand that is not properly tabled can easily be discarded by a player or errant dealer. It is blatantly false to declare it can never happen. To the contrary, it does happen and often enough that a majority of voting TDA members around the world have decided upon this very rule as a measure to prevent the undesirable consequences of errant dealers and players that muck winning hands that have not been properly tabled.
Of course, not all TDA members agree.
4
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by Nick C on January 31, 2021, 08:23:42 PM »Does this make anything clearer? I understand the procedure but the rule can only cause confusion. It goes against every showdown procedure for all-ins that I've ever heard of, or taught, or learned when I went to poker dealing school many years ago. This TDA rule can only create a situation that could induce a player, holding a winning side pot hand, to muck by mistake. Make a rule that demands the all-in must always show their hand to preserve the integrity of the game...however, it should be shown when the pot they are contesting is being decided. That is the only way that makes any sense at all.
5
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by Nick C on January 31, 2021, 05:40:53 PM »I'm afraid this issue will never be resolved. I will paste David Millers example
2 - Even when everyone is prompted to show, there are slight delays. During that delay, a side-pot player might see an all-in player's better hand and fold their hand, even though they might have won the side pot. Because of the rule, the dealer can correctly try to prevent the folded cards from mixing with the muck pile and becoming unidentifiable.
If you hold off on exposing the hand that's not contesting that side pot, the problem you speak of can never happen! I'm done with this subject. I've been doing it my way for 60 years and nobody ever conceded their winning hand to an all-in player not contesting a side pot they didn't pay to compete in. It's very easy for any dealer to prevent an all-in player from prematurely mucking...They can't...they have to show.
2 - Even when everyone is prompted to show, there are slight delays. During that delay, a side-pot player might see an all-in player's better hand and fold their hand, even though they might have won the side pot. Because of the rule, the dealer can correctly try to prevent the folded cards from mixing with the muck pile and becoming unidentifiable.
If you hold off on exposing the hand that's not contesting that side pot, the problem you speak of can never happen! I'm done with this subject. I've been doing it my way for 60 years and nobody ever conceded their winning hand to an all-in player not contesting a side pot they didn't pay to compete in. It's very easy for any dealer to prevent an all-in player from prematurely mucking...They can't...they have to show.
6
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by BillM16 on January 27, 2021, 09:04:48 AM »Having the rule does a couple things.
While I agree with what Dave said in 1, 2, & 3, lets not forget the All-In aspect of this rule. As Mike B. said earlier:
The explanation is this...
When a "tournament life" is on the line, all players in the event have an interest in the outcome of the hand. We want to make sure:
A. That the all-in hand is tabled so that if it truly wins, it is not mucked by mistake and the player knocked out of the event.
B. That all competing hands are also tabled so that a hand that might beat the all-in hand is not mucked in error. Also that no collusion occurs where a better hand is deliberately mucked so the all-in can remain in the event.
Regarding a side pot, consider this situation: 2 hands are competing for the side pot, Player A tables trips and Player B mistakenly mucks a flush face down. Then for the main pot, Player C tables a straight and beats Player A's trips. However, if all hands were required to be tabled, Player C would be knocked out by B's flush.
Hope this helps.
7
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by Dave Miller on January 27, 2021, 08:13:52 AM »Having the rule does a couple things.
1 - When there is any question or hesitation, a dealer can correctly state that every hand must be exposed. It's much simpler than saying, OK, you two first, etc., and avoids the accidental muck problem.
2 - Even when everyone is prompted to show, there are slight delays. During that delay, a side-pot player might see an all-in player's better hand and fold their hand, even though they might have won the side pot. Because of the rule, the dealer can correctly try to prevent the folded cards from mixing with the muck pile and becoming unidentifiable.
3 - If mucked cards do become unidentifiable, and the player then complains about it, the floor person can say "That's why you should follow the dealer's instructions / know the rules."
1 - When there is any question or hesitation, a dealer can correctly state that every hand must be exposed. It's much simpler than saying, OK, you two first, etc., and avoids the accidental muck problem.
2 - Even when everyone is prompted to show, there are slight delays. During that delay, a side-pot player might see an all-in player's better hand and fold their hand, even though they might have won the side pot. Because of the rule, the dealer can correctly try to prevent the folded cards from mixing with the muck pile and becoming unidentifiable.
3 - If mucked cards do become unidentifiable, and the player then complains about it, the floor person can say "That's why you should follow the dealer's instructions / know the rules."
8
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by Nick C on January 27, 2021, 07:05:44 AM »Boris
I agree that a dealer should be in control and they must know who has the best hand for each pot. I was a dealer for many years and an instructor as well. My simple reasoning for showdown rules, whenever there are one or more side pots, is this. There are too many instances when players are not paying attention that they release their hand into the muck when they see a hand exposed that has them beat. It's like a knee-jerk reaction. I've actually had multiple players muck when they shouldn't have because the side pot winner had them beat. I don't know how else to explain it. Can you give me one good reason why you need to see the all-in players hand before seeing the side pot winners? If the all-in can't beat the side pot, he or she can't win anyway! I'm done with this topic. I've been trying to reason with this rule for about 10 years. I will continue to train new dealers the right way until someone can convince me otherwise. If your reasoning is to be certain that the all-in can't surrender his hand without showing it, that's fine. However, it should be shown after the side pots have been awarded.
I agree that a dealer should be in control and they must know who has the best hand for each pot. I was a dealer for many years and an instructor as well. My simple reasoning for showdown rules, whenever there are one or more side pots, is this. There are too many instances when players are not paying attention that they release their hand into the muck when they see a hand exposed that has them beat. It's like a knee-jerk reaction. I've actually had multiple players muck when they shouldn't have because the side pot winner had them beat. I don't know how else to explain it. Can you give me one good reason why you need to see the all-in players hand before seeing the side pot winners? If the all-in can't beat the side pot, he or she can't win anyway! I'm done with this topic. I've been trying to reason with this rule for about 10 years. I will continue to train new dealers the right way until someone can convince me otherwise. If your reasoning is to be certain that the all-in can't surrender his hand without showing it, that's fine. However, it should be shown after the side pots have been awarded.
9
Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Can anyone explain why TDA Rule #16 about All-in at showdown defies regular deal
« Last post by Boris on January 26, 2021, 09:20:08 PM »Hey Nick,
I understand the need of clarification while all hands are tabled but it is the dealer's job to identify which hand/player qualifies for each pot and this whatever the street is when action is over.
We do this in every possible game even in Omaha 6 cards. So yes it can be confusing for the dealer at start, but that's why dealers need to understand the game they are dealing.
The example I gave suits the side pot awards order and complies with TDA regulations.
I remember the times when PokerStars were doing table tests to enter the EPT Team. As dealer you had to identify a winning Texas Hold'em hand between 6 tabled hands while you were dealing and building the pots with the pressure of not being able to join the team if you fail =)
I understand the need of clarification while all hands are tabled but it is the dealer's job to identify which hand/player qualifies for each pot and this whatever the street is when action is over.
We do this in every possible game even in Omaha 6 cards. So yes it can be confusing for the dealer at start, but that's why dealers need to understand the game they are dealing.
The example I gave suits the side pot awards order and complies with TDA regulations.
I remember the times when PokerStars were doing table tests to enter the EPT Team. As dealer you had to identify a winning Texas Hold'em hand between 6 tabled hands while you were dealing and building the pots with the pressure of not being able to join the team if you fail =)
10
Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: A recent ruling dispute in China
« Last post by Nick C on January 26, 2021, 10:51:29 AM »Hello, Tingo,
Your recent question is similar to others that you have posted before. Without knowing what the board looked like, it would be difficult to determine if there were foul play among those other two players. I remember working the floor and announcing to the table that Mr. Jones and Sally are husband and wife. If anyone has any objection to them playing at the same table now is the time to speak up. Chip dumping and collusion can be a serious problem in any cardroom. Soft play is when two players have another player in the middle (so to speak) they raise each other while you are stuck in the middle. When the heat becomes too much, you fold and all of a sudden, they check to the river. They succeeded, they knocked you out and they get the money. Is it collusion? Yes, it is. Chip dumping is a form of collusion, too...but it has a completely different look. In the above situation, could you imagine after they raise you out of the pot, one player bets and the other folds his hand...his winning hand! He gives the pot to his buddy. There is a solution but I don't believe it is in the TDA rules. That is a good topic for a post pandemic for the next TDA Summit.
Your recent question is similar to others that you have posted before. Without knowing what the board looked like, it would be difficult to determine if there were foul play among those other two players. I remember working the floor and announcing to the table that Mr. Jones and Sally are husband and wife. If anyone has any objection to them playing at the same table now is the time to speak up. Chip dumping and collusion can be a serious problem in any cardroom. Soft play is when two players have another player in the middle (so to speak) they raise each other while you are stuck in the middle. When the heat becomes too much, you fold and all of a sudden, they check to the river. They succeeded, they knocked you out and they get the money. Is it collusion? Yes, it is. Chip dumping is a form of collusion, too...but it has a completely different look. In the above situation, could you imagine after they raise you out of the pot, one player bets and the other folds his hand...his winning hand! He gives the pot to his buddy. There is a solution but I don't believe it is in the TDA rules. That is a good topic for a post pandemic for the next TDA Summit.