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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Is it a premature river?

« Last post by karlovic on May 09, 2024, 09:06:11 AM »

We have recently encountered a scenario in a tournament that raises some interesting questions regarding rule interpretation.
Case for analysis:

Hand Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSzzmGoGYeg

Final Table Texas Hold'em NL Tournament / 4 players remaining

Blinds 40k/80K/BB Ante 80k

KAWACHY UTG: CALL 80K
ALDO BTN: CALL 80K
KEVIN SB: CALL 80K
JESUS BB: CHECK

FLOP: Kd8h2s

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: CHECK
KAWACHY UTG: CHECK
ALDO BTN: CHECK

TURN: 2d

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: BET 110K
KAWACHY UTG: CALL 110K
ALDO BTN: FOLD
KEVIN SB: PUTS 210K (The Dealer doesn't notice and proceeds to open the River)

RIVER: As

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: CHECK
KAWACHY UTG: He's counting chips to bet

15 seconds after noticing the error...

JESUS BB: Asks, so what did you want to do? Referring to the small, he tells him and tells the dealer, you put two 100k chips.

At that moment the hand is stopped, it is confirmed that SB had put $210k and the Floor is called.

The Floor decides to take the River as a Premature River and returns the actions to the turn, putting the Ace back into the deck and reshuffling before finishing the actions.

KEVIN SB: PUTS 220K
JESUS BB: CALL 210K
KAWACHY UTG: FOLD

RIVER: 7c

KEVIN SB: CHECK
JESUS BB: CHECK

How would you define this case?

Considering that the SB, who inadvertently "made the raise," did not realize the error, could this indicate that the SB had no intention of raising and simply made a mistake in placing the chips?

Is possible that the BB was attempting to gain an advantage by waiting 15 seconds before pointing out the SB's error, Would this be a sufficient argument to keep the river card and not interpret it as a premature river?

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Big Blind Ante - Ante First Procedural Discussion

« Last post by karlovic on May 08, 2024, 02:59:59 PM »

In a Big Blind Ante tournament, if a player in the big blind doesn't have enough chips to cover both the big blind and the Ante, the Ante is paid first. This is because the Ante is considered a pre-hand obligation, similar to the traditional Ante that every player used to put in before cards were dealt.

When a player only has enough chips to cover the Ante, it means they can only play for the Ante pot and not for the blind pot. Similarly, if a player only has enough chips to cover the Ante in a Big Blind Ante tournament, they can only play for that value and not for the full blind amount.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Forward motion of cards or chips

« Last post by Nick C on May 08, 2024, 02:03:46 PM »

Welcome...Ralf009

If I were in charge, the simple solution would be to confront that player before the game begins. You said he has done this on numerous occasions.

WARNING: Next time,  chips moving forward, on your turn to act, can not be retracted.

You might also warn other players to always wait for the action in front of them to be completed before any reaction, including a fold!

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2024 POKER TDA SUMMIT XI / what are the hot topics for this year?

« Last post by JasperToo on May 07, 2024, 10:45:19 AM »

What are the hot topics for this year??

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2024 POKER TDA SUMMIT XI / Re: Registration is now open

« Last post by JasperToo on May 07, 2024, 10:20:09 AM »

When is the TDA tournament?  Any special room rates available this year?

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Forward motion of cards or chips

« Last post by Dave Miller on May 03, 2024, 09:32:18 AM »

Ralf -
You could have started a new thread, but whatever.


For the first case, some card rooms have a rule that any chips that cross the line, or go forward past the cards when there is no line, is the bet. I assume you don’t have that rule.

Without that rule, I would say that forward motion with chips indicates an intended bet. Bringing all the chips back forces a minimum bet. Not sure what kind of warning or penalty should be given.

Remind the other player, and the rest of the table, “and that’s why we don’t take action until the prior players action is complete.”


For your second case, I would say that “all in? (question)” can be interpreted as “I’m going all in. You gonna call?” It’s still a question, and would rule it as an all in. Anything else would be angle shooting or trying to get a read, etc.

I will give a penalty to both players, as well as write up to the Dealer for allowing a pot to be awarded when there was a discrepancy that the floor has not had a chance to take a look at.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Forward motion of cards or chips

« Last post by Ralf009 on May 03, 2024, 06:56:55 AM »

Hi Guys, this looks like the most recent topic regarding forward motion so i'm going to ask my question here. We have a poker club, all self deal events, buyins €25 to  €50, fields between 100 and 300 entries to give you an idea what were doing.

We have a player who has been caught doing the following multiple times (in different events): On the river when he is heads up he takes all of his remaining chips clearly moving them forward in his hand across the betting line and than when he notices his opponent reaching for chips or even saying call in one case he rethinks his actions and takes his chips back.

Where would you guys draw the line regarding what is allowed and what not? and what kind of penalty would be given ?

In another case the player is also heads up on the river and he says "all-in?" telling us it was his goal to ask if the player would go all-in... only did the other player not receive it as a question but as an actual declaration of all-in and snapcalls with the nuts. Rest of the table heard the words all-in as well and he just claimed it was all-in? as a question? ever had this case happen? As floor in this case i couldn't do anything since they called me to the table while all cards were already discarded and neither of the 2 players actually tabled their hand. So the 2nd person just took the pot and agreed not to get the remaining chips of the other player

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by Nick C on April 20, 2024, 05:38:07 AM »

There are many other rulesets for poker.
 Show me another that puts all the responsibility of an inaccurate call amount on the calling player,?


49: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount or declares call, the caller has accepted the full correct action and is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion. See also RP-12.

A calling player, given the incorrect amount from the bettor or the dealer, after asking:  "How much is it to call?"   

Are you really going to apply Accepted Action?

I believe you should take a closer look at the rule and pay more attention to the last two sentences.

          As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion. See also RP-12.
                     

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by Dave Miller on April 19, 2024, 10:01:51 PM »

Nick, I respectfully disagree. Without that rule, you open the game up to angle shooting.

Bottom line, know the rules, and know the action.

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by Nick C on April 19, 2024, 03:16:20 PM »

Brooks,
 
Sorry, I don't agree with you on this one. There are times when common sense should overrule an obvious mistake.
Forcing a player to pay up and surrender his hand is a little too severe.

Some day you will be making a bluff, and because of this ridiculous rule, a player who had no intention of calling your raise, will be forced to call you and beat you!

There's too much here to try to cover but some rules from the past should have been left alone!