Author Topic: Action out of turn: Player declares Pot OOT, how to handle?  (Read 5406 times)

MikeB

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Action out of turn: Player declares Pot OOT, how to handle?
« on: September 13, 2013, 07:27:12 AM »
A TDA member submitted the following interesting question by email, it's posted here to share the discussion. See answers in red.

*************** start question ***********************
I have a question about action out of turn in a PLO tournament.  Action out of turn is binding unless the action in front changes.  A check, fold, or call is not considered a change in action.  With that in mind what would be the ruling in the following example...

On the flop with 3 players in the hand.  The pot currently has 20k and Player A has bet 15k.  Player C acts out of turn by declaring a pot size raise.  Is the amount of Player C's bet affected by the action of Player B?

Yes. Best to interpret the rule literally in this case: if B checks, folds, or calls the action to C doesn't change, i.e. C has a binding committment to make a pot-size raise when the correct action reaches him in turn.


I ask because if Player B folds a pot sized bet would be 65k.  However, if Player B calls the bet would be 80k.  

Right, and that's the minutiae to stay away from, just go with the rule literally: if B checks, folds, or calls, C must make a pot size raise at the time the correct action reaches him. It's player's responsibility to follow the action, and be aware of the betting amounts occurring in real time..

Is the decision different if Player C's action was verbal or if they placed chips in the pot? (for example if they threw out 4-$25k chips).

Throwing out four 25k's is not identical to verbally declaring a pot-size raise. It is identical to declaring "100 thousand", if it's a raise, or making a multiple-chip call if four 25k's silently doesn't equal a valid raise. Silent chip raises are always "the maximum allowable for the chip(s)" (Rule 42).  If a pot-size bet is 65K and the player overbets by either verbally declaring "100K" or silently pushing out 100k in chips, then 35k will be returned in change.

Thanks for your time and I look forward to reading your answer,
Name withheld
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 07:57:00 AM by MikeB »

K-Lo

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Re: Action out of turn: Player declares Pot OOT, how to handle?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 08:11:24 AM »
Agreed with the answers above.

I recognize the issue that when an intervening player calls, it changes the nature of the action slightly since the total of the pot-sized raise changes, but we also need to look at the problem from the perspective of the innocent skipped player.  If he wants the OOT player to be bound by the pot-sized raise, so that he may take advantage of it (including e.g. reraising), he must be allowed to call without the call being considered as action-changing. If this were not the case, then players would pot out of turn as an angle with little risk if we allow him to retract it whenever the intervening players do not fold.

Nick C

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Re: Action out of turn: Player declares Pot OOT, how to handle?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 08:36:35 AM »
I also agree with both replies. One slight correction: Player B could not check because Player A bet 15K. Would it be safe to say; the only action, from the skipped player, that would not bind Player C to his OOT would be if Player B raised?

K-Lo

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Re: Action out of turn: Player declares Pot OOT, how to handle?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 08:42:48 AM »
Agreed. Any wager by B greater than 15k would change the action for the purpose of this particular rule.

Although in theory, one could argue that a short raise (e.g. If B went all in for 15,100) should be deemed a call and not action changing, but I think we would stick with the rule here and say that it is action changing. Just thought I'd put it out there.