Author Topic: Does the player have to show his cards???  (Read 25646 times)

Nick C

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2013, 08:29:48 AM »
Mike, This is how I feel these situations should be handled.
 You wrote:
"For me it's most interesting to discuss individual house policies here because not all of Tristan's example (or any example) is fully covered by TDA at this point."

To summarize Tristan's example: A bets, B and C call, B shows a straight, A releases his cards face down towards center table but still identifiable, and C who retains his cards asks to see A's hand. So this involves a lot of issues. Any player that releases his or her hand has no right to the pot! If cards were not properly tabled, the hand is dead.

#1: Does C have a right or a privilege to ask to see A's hand. It's not a written TDA rule, but all the dialogue at Summit VI confirms that C has an inalienable right to ask to see the hand he called on the final street, so no debate there. BUT... According to Webster's Dictionary; a privilege is not different from a right. The noun right is described as; that which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.

#2: A has released his cards, so if they are turned up here are they live or dead? They are not live if they were surrendered by the owner. This is very basic poker...Player's  must protect their own hand! Intentionally mucking your hand is the action of a player having no interest in competing for the pot. Per RRoP they are clearly dead. However, many but not a super-majority of TDA members at Summit VI think all cards tabled at showdown should be live.... The TDA does not take a position on this as of yet. What's is everyone's house rule here? In my opinion the TDA is sending mixed signals. We need to clearly define the proper procedure that must be followed at every showdown. Think about our discussion?...currently, we can make any ruling that we want. The hand is ruled dead if surrendered, or it can be deemed live if the TD wants to see it! (I won't even get into who is going to turn over the released hand, that's another sore spot for me).

#3: Add another dimension, what if C has turned up a lesser hand than B? So you have a known loser asking to see the discarded hand of the last aggressor, a hand he has an inalienable right to see... does this affect whether A's hand is live or dead per your house rules? RRoP again is clear that the hand is dead because it was discarded AND being shown at the request of a known loser. The key here is "requests to see the discarded hand of the last aggressor." If Player A did not release his hand, it should be turned over by the owner of the hand. He must turn over the hand, or surrender it to the muck. This is why it is so important for the proper order of showdown to be followed. If Player A releases his hand, the order of showdown commences in clockwise fashion. The dealer will read each exposed hand...muck the loser and award the pot to the winner. At this time, the request to see the mucked hand will be carried out.

#4: Yet another dimension... it's checked around on the river. So B shows a straight, A discards, and C who retains his cards asks to see A's hand. A was not the last aggressor in this example, so do you show his cards? Only if requested, and not until the pot is awarded....On a checked round, Player A is responsible to show first, just as if he initiated a bet. His first action of "check" does not change his obligation of "first to show." The only exception is if there is a house rule that insists on the last aggressor, (from a previous round) acts first.  By right or privilege? We are confusing the issue with "right" or "privilege" If by privilege how do you decide when to and when not to show? We must follow "order of showdown." Will you accommodate the first few requests then consider it an etiquette violation? If the same players are obviously abusing their right to see a called hand, that privilege may, and should be taken away from any player deliberately using the request as a form of irritation. Or will you only grant the privilege if you suspect collusion or? I am against asking to see any hand because you suspect collusion. Are A's cards live or dead in this variation? Let's go back to the proper order of showdown. If Player C turned his hand first, the dealer should request that Player A show his hand, If he shows and has the best hand, he wins! If Player B is still in the hand, it now depends on what action Player A takes; If Player A mucks...he loses and his hand will be exposed after Player B takes in the pot. If Player A is in head to head against Player C's losing hand...Player A wins! What if C had first shown a losing hand then asked to see A's cards, would that make a difference? No, as I just explained.

So the question is really about how your house fills in the blanks not yet covered by TDA rules on the matter. Do you realize how easy this is to fix for tournament poker?

 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:24:50 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2013, 10:04:31 AM »
Mike, This is how I feel these situations should be handled.
 You wrote:
"For me it's most interesting to discuss individual house policies here because not all of Tristan's example (or any example) is fully covered by TDA at this point."

To summarize Tristan's example: A bets, B and C call, B shows a straight, A releases his cards face down towards center table but still identifiable, and C who retains his cards asks to see A's hand. So this involves a lot of issues. Any player that releases his or her hand has no right to the pot! If cards were not properly tabled, the hand is dead.
Nick, thanks for taking the time to go through these situations one-by-one.... So it seems from answer above that you have a forward motion / mucking line rule at showdown that says if an untabled hand is released forward at showdown it is instantly dead and even if identifiable it's owner cannot then table it. This is covered by TDA Rule 14-B.  Also important, what if when it's my turn to show I still have my cards (but haven't tabled them) BUT I say something acknowledging defeat such as "I fold" or "you win" or "take it", will that also instantly kill my un-tabled hand under your house rules, or can I change my mind and still table my cards in my possession after declaring that my hand is a loser?

#1: Does C have a right or a privilege to ask to see A's hand. It's not a written TDA rule, but all the dialogue at Summit VI confirms that C has an inalienable right to ask to see the hand he called on the final street, so no debate there. BUT... According to Webster's Dictionary; a privilege is not different from a right. The noun right is described as; that which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.
Okay, so what's being discussed here are two possibilities:  a non-revokable or inalienable right, versus a revokable or deniable right that can be granted or denied at TD's discretion (that's what is called a "privilege", though privilege may not be the best term...). So, in this circumstance player C asks to see A's hand, the last aggressive hand on the river. Does C have a non-revokable or revokable right to see the cards under this circumstance at your venue?

#2: A has released his cards, so if they are turned up here are they live or dead? They are not live if they were surrendered by the owner. This is very basic poker...Player's  must protect their own hand! Intentionally mucking your hand is the action of a player having no interest in competing for the pot.
So again, you confirm that you have a mucking line or forward motion rule at showdown, yes? Push your non-tabled cards forward and they are instantly dead at your house, even if within reach of the player who otherwise could reach out and table them, yes?


Per RRoP they are clearly dead, [unless Player C has a stronger hand than B]. However, many but not a super-majority of TDA members at Summit VI think all cards tabled at showdown should be live.... The TDA does not take a position on this as of yet. What's is everyone's house rule here? In my opinion the TDA is sending mixed signals. We need to clearly define the proper procedure that must be followed at every showdown. Think about our discussion?...currently, we can make any ruling that we want. The hand is ruled dead if surrendered, or it can be deemed live if the TD wants to see it! (I won't even get into who is going to turn over the released hand, that's another sore spot for me).
Well, currently you can make any ruling that your house rules permit. The TDA does recognize some variance in house rules on the matter of whether forward motion instantly kills a hand, and whether all hands tabled at showdown by whatever means are live, or only certain hands are live. Until a super-majority of the "poker world" comes to a consensus on this, the TDA must recognize these variances, no? It's not the TDA saying "do whatever you want", it's the fact that a consensus has not yet been reached, so until that time house rules still do apply in certain situations, hence this discussion.

#3: Add another dimension, what if C has turned up a lesser hand than B? So you have a known loser asking to see the discarded hand of the last aggressor, a hand he has an inalienable right to see... does this affect whether A's hand is live or dead per your house rules? RRoP again is clear that the hand is dead because it was discarded AND being shown at the request of a known loser. The key here is "requests to see the discarded hand of the last aggressor." If Player A did not release his hand, it should be turned over by the owner of the hand. He must turn over the hand, or surrender it to the muck. This is why it is so important for the proper order of showdown to be followed. If Player A releases his hand, the order of showdown commences in clockwise fashion. The dealer will read each exposed hand...muck the loser and award the pot to the winner. At this time, the request to see the mucked hand will be carried out.
Okay, so per your house rules A's hand is dead in this situation.... What if C turned up a better hand than B, are A's cards still dead or are they live then?


#4: Yet another dimension... it's checked around on the river. So B shows a straight, A discards, and C who retains his cards asks to see A's hand. A was not the last aggressor in this example, so do you show his cards? On a checked round, Player A is responsible to show first, just as if he initiated a bet. His first action of "check" does not change his obligation of "first to show." The only exception is if there is a house rule that insists on the last aggressor, (from a previous round) acts first.  By right or privilege? We are confusing the issue with "right" or "privilege" If by privilege how do you decide when to and when not to show? We must follow "order of showdown." Will you accommodate the first few requests then consider it an etiquette violation? If the same players are obviously abusing their right to see a called hand, that privilege may, and should be taken away from any player deliberately using the request as a form of irritation.
Okay, several things here:

i:  "...obviously abusing their right to see a called hand..." An inalienable right can't be "abused", you always have it. Whereas a revokable right (which I call a privilege but perhaps that's not the best term) can be denied. If we're talking about a called hand of the last aggressor on the river, do you show that always to any requesting caller, or only if you think they aren't abusing a revokable privilege?

ii: it also seems that your house rule is that for every showdown, the order of show must be followed, rather than permitting spontaneous tabling and mucking, yes?

[/color] Or will you only grant the privilege if you suspect collusion or? I am against asking to see any hand because you suspect collusion.
So under your house rules, it sounds like:
i: even if I called the last aggressor on the river, I don't have an inalienable right to see his cards on request, because if I abuse this request you may deny it...
ii: you won't grant a request to see a hand based on a stated suspicion of collusion...
So the question returns to under what conditions for your house rules does a player have an inalienable (irrevokable) right to see a hand on request, and when do they have only a deniable or revokable privilege at your discretion?


Are A's cards live or dead in this variation? Let's go back to the proper order of showdown. If Player C turned his hand first, the dealer should request that Player A show his hand, If he shows and has the best hand, he wins! If Player B is still in the hand, it now depends on what action Player A takes; If Player A mucks...he loses and his hand will be exposed after Player B takes in the pot.
Okay, so again you have a forward motion rule to kill A's hand, and B (the presumptive winner) didn't ask to see A's hand (C, the loser did), so this is a form of a forward motion rule plus RRoP "if the loser asks to see the discarded hand it is dead")...

BUT, what if C, the requesting player, has a better hand than B.... A has mucked.... and after you push the pot towards C you discover that A had a better hand than C... do you still award to C because A voluntarily discarded his hand? OR do you award to A because C (the presumptive winner) asked to see A's discarded hand and it's live if the presumptive winner asks to see it?

Here's my summary understanding of your house rules, LMK if the following is accurate:
1. Every showdown should follow the order of show. Each player in turn may choose to table or to discard. IF they discard, their hand is immediately dead by forward motion.
2. If any player at the showdown asks to see a discarded hand, the house may or may not grant the request. The house reserves the right to deny any request, including the request by a player who called the discarded hand of the last aggressor on the river.
3. The only live cards at showdown are cards tabled in turn, by their owners, during the order of show.

Is that an accurate summary or?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 10:47:54 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2013, 12:14:03 PM »
Mike,

 Let's start by looking at our own TDA rules:

                        Pots / Showdown

12: Declarations. Cards Speak at Showdown
Cards speak to determine the winner. Verbal declarations of hand value are not binding at
showdown. However, deliberately miscalling a hand may be penalized. Any player, in the hand
or not, should speak up if he thinks a mistake is being made in the reading of hands.

13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand

A: At showdown, a player should put all cards on the table so the dealer and players can read
the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in holdem, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7
cards in 7-stud, etc. I would prefer using the word "must" put all cards on the table....but the message is very clear to me. Dealers cannot kill a hand that was tabled and obviously the winning hand.The hand we speak of was not tabled...a clear violation of our rules. © Copyright 2013: All Rights Reserved, Poker Tournament Directors Association. See use policy at http://PokerTDA.com.

B: If a player does not fully table his cards, then mucks thinking he has won, he does so at his
own risk. If the cards are not 100% identifiable and the TD rules that the hand could not clearly
be read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was
sufficiently tabled is final. Different situation, but not tabled at all.

14: Live Cards at Showdown

A: If the house does not have a mucking line or forward motion rule at showdown, pushing nontabled cards forward face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind
and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. However, the cards are at risk of being
killed by the dealer when he pushes them into the muckpile. Two points of interest: #1 There is a definite need for a muck line, and #2 The dealer should kill any hand surrendered by the owner of the hand unless another player requests to see the hand. I've explained the proper procedure, so I won't repeat it.

B: If a mucking line or forward motion rule is in effect at showdown, house standards apply.

15: Face Up for All-Ins
All cards will be tabled without delay once a player is all-in and all betting action by all other
players in the hand is complete. See Illustration Addendum. I like the idea of all cards being tabled but, I don't like the standard order of showdown is not enforced.

16: Showdown Order

In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled, the TD may enforce an order
of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If
there was no bet on the final street, then the player who would be first to act in a betting round
must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low
hand showing in razz, etc.). This is perfect! We need to enforce our own rule. Except where house policy requires a hand to be tabled during the
order of show, a player may elect to muck his hand face down.This part is unacceptable to me. How can we protect players from collusion and chip dumping, if player's can muck at will? Knowing that their hand may be exposed upon request, is the best way to assure the rightful winner is awarded the pot. Tournament poker is not the time to allow the wrong player, in for all bets, to get the pot!

17: Playing the Board at Showdown

When playing the board a player must table all hole cards in order to get part of the pot.

18: Asking to See a Hand

Players not still in possession of their cards at showdown, or who have mucked face down at showdown without fully tabling their hand lose any rights to ask to see a hand. Not sure I understand what this is trying to tell me. If you are not in possession of your hand, you have mucked! ??? Why would you muck without seeing a better hand first? This rule also implies that I may see any player's hand, as long as I still posses mine, or have properly tabled mine prior to mucking.


One more important question that everyone keeps avoiding...please tell me, if insisting all player's table their cards at showdown, wouldn't be the best solution?


« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:26:36 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2013, 02:07:08 PM »
Nick, thanks. So to repeat from prior post, here's my summary understanding of your current house rules:

1. Every showdown should follow the order of show. Each player in turn may choose to table or to discard. IF they discard, their hand is immediately dead by forward motion.

2. If any player at the showdown asks to see a discarded hand, the house may or may not grant the request. The house reserves the right to deny any request, including the request by a player who called the discarded hand of the last aggressor on the river.

3. The only live cards at showdown are cards tabled in turn, by their owners, during the order of show.

***** If the above is reasonably accurate, then IMO none of this is a flagrant violation of TDA rules as currently written:
1. Your first rule is consistent with TDA 14-B, for venues using a mucking line at showdown...

2. You consider ALL requests to see a hand to be a revokable privilege, again 100% permissible under implications of Rule 18.

3. Is again consistent with TDA 14-B...

I assume that you do not allow players who have discarded their hands at showdown without tabling them to ask to see any hand (TDA Rule 18)....

So, as far as I can tell your house rules are not in conflict with TDA rules regarding showdown... you do enforce order of show everytime, which is TD's right to enforce order of show (Rule 16), you do it a bit more frequently than other venues, but still not out of line with Rule 16...

*************
It's also not 100% clear to me whether any discarded hand which is subsequently shown by request is ever live per your house rules. You indicate the procedure for a discarded hand is to hold it to the side, award the pot to the best tabled hand, THEN reveal the discarded hand. What if the person asking to see the hand was the presumptive winner? Is the discarded hand then live or does it remain dead since you've already the pot? And do you allow the "winner" to pull in the pot and merge it with his chipstack before revealing the cards?

What if the person asking to see the hand was not the presumptive winner?


*************
Lastly, you would like to see the tournament poker world come to agreement that ALL hands reaching showdown will be tabled, which would dispense with alot of these other issues. That may be a ways off, if ever, so in the mean time we have to find agreement where we can, and allow houses enough latitude to work their own rules as long as they are not in flagrant conflict with anything specified in TDA...

Note that again, this disparity of procedures is not coming from the TDA, but from the poker world itself where different houses cling to their different ways of doing certain things and have not yet found super-majority consensus. But we can and should keep working on it to find agreement where possible.

Thanks again for outlining your recommendations.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 05:09:26 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2013, 06:04:07 PM »
Mike,

 I will copy and paste what I wrote earlier. I don't know how to say it any better than this:  

 You missed the important part of the proper procedure. I said: "If another player requests to see the discarded hand...the dealer should kill the hand by touching it to the muck. The cards are retained until the pot has been awarded to the winner, and then the cards are shown. In the event, the winner of the hand requests to see an opponents mucked hand, both hands are live and the best hand wins!"

 I do like the old rules, for cash games, which is where this thread originated. My concern for tournament poker is different because it affects every single participant and we need a guarantee that the pot goes to the player with the best hand. I'm not a big fan of many that have the twisted belief that "the player should know what he's doing or he shouldn't be playing or, if he can't read his own hand, he has no right to the pot."

 Somehow, I don't feel that I'm in compliance with the TDA rules. I don't see it that way, and I don't care for the TDA showdown rules at all. I believe every player has the right to see every called hand at showdown...that's it. You should not be allowed to ditch your hand, if another player requests to see it...they PAID to see it. I don't like the idea that I might have to suspect collusion before I can ask to see a called hand.

 Once again, my comparison to all-in situations is ignored. That's all I have on this subject. Change is needed.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 06:20:08 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2013, 09:17:10 PM »
I said: "If another player requests to see the discarded hand...the dealer should kill the hand by touching it to the muck. The cards are retained until the pot has been awarded to the winner, and then the cards are shown. In the event, the winner of the hand requests to see an opponents mucked hand, both hands are live and the best hand wins!"


Nick, great, this clarifies your CURRENT house rules further and I did miss it the first time around, of course there is ALOT of material to wade through. So here's how I understand your current house rules at this point:

1. Every showdown should follow the order of show. Each player in turn may choose to table or to discard. IF they discard, their hand is immediately dead by forward motion. The ONLY way the hand may be revived is covered in 3 below.

2. If any player at the showdown asks to see a discarded hand, the house may or may not grant the request. The house reserves the right to deny any request, including the request by a player who called the discarded hand of the last aggressor on the river.

3. If a request to see a discarded hand is granted, the cards will be set aside, once the pot winner among the remaining players is determined, THEN the discards will be shown. If the pot winner asked to see them, the discards are now live. If any other player asked, the discards are dead.

NOW, does that cover your CURRENT house rules ? Or is there anything else to add, or is any part of the above wrong?

********************
NEXT, I'm hearing that you would like to switch these rules to require all hands to be shown at every showdown. Fair enough, of course that is a complete departure from the first set of your house rules above. Is one set for cash games and another for tournaments?

If you were to institute a required showing of all hands reaching showdown, then you would be covered under TDA Rule 16 "...Except where house policy requires a hand to be tabled during the order of show, a player may elect to muck his hand face down."  So your house policy would simply be to require ALL hands to be tabled during the showdown, fair enough. That subject was broached at Summit VI, it will be interesting to see if enough consensus has developed by Summit VII to adopt it.

Nick's done a great job of presenting his views.... Would anyone else like to step up and present their house rules related to Tristan's example?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:57:58 AM by MikeB »

MikeB

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2013, 09:41:11 PM »
Here's my house policies on the subject of this thread... btw, my policies aren't one bit better than anyone elses, but they are what I enforce based on my sense of the best interest of the game, traditions of the game, players preferences, and the specific rules cited. I truly believe that there are philosophical differences in this area that may not ever be 100% resolved .... and therefore they will become part of the corners of the large tent of the TDA.... At this point there is no super-majority consensus on SOME of these issues, I accept that and in the mean time:

1. At showdown, ALL PLAYERS are encouraged to spontaneously table their cards for all to read.

2. If nobody tables, then the order of show will be enforced per TDA Rule 16

3. I do not use a mucking line / forward motion kill at showdown (so I'm TDA Rule 14-A not B). If you choose to release your non-tabled cards towards the center table, they are killed when the dealer buries them in the muck (which dealers are instructed to do promptly). "I don't want you arm-wrestling with the dealer" (have to credit Jack Effel for that great quote) but technically if you change your mind and can still reach and table your cards, I will consider them live. But this is 100% at your risk, I'm not looking to protect any player who has tossed his cards (see 7 below).

4. I do not honor any verbal declaration at showdown. Saying "I fold" or any other words or gestures of capitulation has no meaning at showdown, only cards speaking for themselves matters. This is my use of TDA Rule 12, though some may not take it quite that far, I respect that. I'm an unapologetic absolutist on cards reading for themselves.
I do not want to be required to decipher what some "utterance" at showdown means. It's enough of a challenge to read the cards right. If I do that, nobody should complain.

5. The only player with a 100% inalienable right to see any hand on request is a player asking to see the last aggressor on the final street. To do so, that player must have either tabled his cards or retain them face down at time of request (TDA Rule 18). I will grant this request 100 times out of 100 requests (Summit VI: 99.9% agreement though no rule written). If the hand is still in possession of the bettor, then the hand is live regardless of who asks. If the hand has been discarded then it is live if the requesting player holds the best hand among the remaining players, otherwise it is dead. RRoP, see below.

6. Any other request to see a hand will be granted at my sole discretion (TDA Rule 18). The requesting player must either have tabled his hand or retained his cards face down (TDA Rule 18). I tend to respect a player's wishes to muck his hand face down (except in 5 above), so unless there's suspicion of collusion or some other best interest of the game involved, I tend to not honor the request. IF HONORED, again if the cards are still in the players possession they are always live. If they have been discarded then if the best remaining hand requests it, the cards are live, otherwise they are dead. RRoP see below

7. Players playing games or trying to shoot angles with my rules do so at their own peril. The play of hands is the place for gamesmanship, not the showdown. Dealers are encouraged to take control at showdown. [ A rule I would love to see !!!!!   Been hoping for something along those lines since the DeWolfe v. Reinkemeir fiasco :) ]

Note Re RRoP: My house policies are strongly influenced by, but not identical to RRoP Version 11, Section 3, General rules, Showdown sub-section, paragraph 5. The main difference being I don't consider requests to see a hand from anyone other than players fitting TDA 18 whereas RRoP grants it to "any player who has been dealt in". RRoP also does not distinguish between asking to see the last aggressive hand on the river vs. any hand. Per TDA Summit VI, asking to see the last aggressor's hand on the river should always be granted... but there is disagreement whether it's always live or not. Per my house policy, if it's still in the player's possession or if it's been discarded and the presumptive winner asks to see it's live, otherwise dead.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:25:57 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2013, 08:17:01 AM »
Mike,

 First of all...I want to thank you for all the time you spent on this important subject. I will now try to condense what I'd like to see for tournament poker.

 #1 I would like to see all cards (of active players) tabled at showdown. The way the TDA rules for all-in's at showdown
 #2 Last aggressor, or first to check final betting round must show first, this order of show will begin immediately, there will be no stalling. There is no option to muck without showing your called hand.

If the above rules are not adopted;

  I would at least request that any player (dealt in that hand) be allowed to see any player's hand...upon request.
  
 Now, to answer your questions:
1. Every showdown should follow the order of show. Each player in turn may choose to table or to discard. Under current rules (allowing the option to fold), if they discard, yes...their hand is dead. IF they discard, their hand is immediately dead by forward motion. The ONLY way the hand may be revived is covered in 3 below. We can make a case for the player that is quick enough to retrieve his hand before the dealer muck's it. Remember, we are not making reference to a hand that was properly tabled, the hand was voluntarily surrendered by the owner and he should have no redress if his hand is dead! This is very rare, however. Most player's do not release the winning hand, they are quick to attempt to muck just because they don't want to; expose their bluff, or poor play, or give too much information, etc., etc.

2. If any player at the showdown asks to see a discarded hand, the house may or may not grant the request. Not really, I would allow every request to see any hand as long as the player involved is not using his right as a form of irritation. The house reserves the right to deny any request, including the request by a player who called the discarded hand of the last aggressor on the river. I've read this sentence 5 times, and I'm getting tongue tied trying to decipher it's content. :P I will say, the house should always be allowed to have the final say, on any decision. However, my idea of a reason to deny the request is; when a player (usually involved in prior confrontations with a specific player), tells the dealer that he wants to see every single called hand that "Jason" is involved in. This is usually done in anger, and probably because Jason asked to see his hand. I hope you can follow this because it is actually very common. In fact, the right to ask to see a called hand has been taken away from player's in one of our local casino's.

3. If a request to see a discarded hand is granted, the cards will be set aside, Yes, but touched to the muck first once the pot winner among the remaining players is determined, THEN the discards will be shown. If the pot winner asked to see them, the discards are now live. Yes If any other player asked, the discards are dead. Yes.


 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 08:33:30 AM by Nick C »

Nick C

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2013, 09:59:24 AM »
Hello again. Mike, I'll copy your opening statement from your most recent post:

Here's my house policies on the subject of this thread... btw, my policies aren't one bit better than anyone elses, but they are what I enforce based on my sense of the best interest of the game, traditions of the game, players preferences, and the specific rules cited. This is interesting...I'm sure that the most experienced player's or the celebrity player's will have a much greater impact on your decision making. Meanwhile, the newer player's are left in the dark (so to speak). I guess it's part of the beginners syndrome they will have to deal with...kind of like an initiation, until they become seasoned and respected at the tables. I truly believe that there are philosophical differences in this area that may not ever be 100% resolved .... and therefore they will become part of the corners of the large tent of the TDA.... At this point there is no super-majority consensus on SOME of these issues, I accept that and in the mean time:

 Mike, can you agree (without making any commitment, or implying that you would approve), that insisting all cards be tabled at showdown would solve all of these issues?
#1 There would be no argument over cards not being shown... because they MUST.
#2 We would never have to worry about the wrong player getting the pot!
#3 All suspicion of collusion would be eliminated.
#4 Chip dumping would be eliminated.
#5 Tournament director's and Floorpersons would be spared making any calls that might be unpopular, or inconsistent.
#6 Dealers will have the authority to insist all cards are tabled, preventing any player from an attempted muck.

 We must agree, assuring the rightful winner gets the pot, is certainly in the best interest of the game...isn't it?

MikeB

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2013, 12:10:24 PM »
Obviously it would solve all those. But it would also fundamentally change the game, IMO.

1: Just speaking as a player, I don't like to be forced to show my hand at showdown if I choose to muck it; unless of course I was the last aggressive bettor on the river in which case I understand that my bet was called. I think the vast majority of players feel this same way. I know we would all like to see everyone's hand, but in general we don't want to show ours.

2: It also changes the factor of mis-reading your hand. While I do in general want the best hand to win I believe that being able to read your own hand is a virtue in the game and if someone fails at that and mucks a winner that is part of the game.

3: It would definitely slow the game down

So it's a matter of weighing the costs and the benefits of any rule. For the reasons above, 1 being most important to me, I personally don't favor a switch. This is also an area that would require alot of player support to put through I think... but to the question, yes it would resolve alot of stuff.

Nick C

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2013, 01:46:46 PM »
Mike,

 I'm going to quote you again, and then high-lite my response, again.

1: Just speaking as a player, I don't like to be forced to show my hand at showdown if I choose to muck it; unless of course I was the last aggressive bettor on the river in which case I understand that my bet was called. I think the vast majority of players feel this same way. I know we would all like to see everyone's hand, but in general we don't want to show ours. Too bad! You bet, you show...that's poker! I'm going to try this one more time. Can you explain why we insist on exposing all hands at showdown, only when a player is all-in?

2: It also changes the factor of mis-reading your hand. While I do in general want the best hand to win I believe that being able to read your own hand is a virtue in the game and if someone fails at that and mucks a winner that is part of the game. Mike, that's fine for cash games...but not for tournaments. How can we, in good conscience, think that awarding the pot to any player, other than the winner, would be in the best interest of the game?

3: It would definitely slow the game down. On the contrary, we've had this discussion on other threads and insisting all cards are tabled in showdown order, will prevent a lot of the stalling tactics that we see in every tournament.

So it's a matter of weighing the costs and the benefits of any rule. For the reasons above, 1 being most important to me, I personally don't favor a switch. This is also an area that would require alot of player support to put through I think... but to the question, yes it would resolve alot of stuff.


Obviously it would solve all those. On this, I rest my case!;D But it would also fundamentally change the game, IMO.






« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:00:32 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: Does the player have to show his cards???
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2013, 03:11:16 PM »
Mike,

 I'm going to quote you again, and then high-lite my response, again.

1: Just speaking as a player, I don't like to be forced to show my hand at showdown if I choose to muck it; unless of course I was the last aggressive bettor on the river in which case I understand that my bet was called. I think the vast majority of players feel this same way. I know we would all like to see everyone's hand, but in general we don't want to show ours. Too bad! You bet, you show...that's poker! But what if you CALL do you have to show? That's not poker... yet anyway.....  I'm going to try this one more time. Can you explain why we insist on exposing all hands at showdown, only when a player is all-in?
There's more on the line, much more, i.e. a tournament life.

2: It also changes the factor of mis-reading your hand. While I do in general want the best hand to win I believe that being able to read your own hand is a virtue in the game and if someone fails at that and mucks a winner that is part of the game. Mike, that's fine for cash games...but not for tournaments. How can we, in good conscience, think that awarding the pot to any player, other than the winner, would be in the best interest of the game? "Other than the winner"... well, part of being a winner is being able to read your cards, and also to withhold information from players. Switching to this proposal would remove that....

3: It would definitely slow the game down. On the contrary, we've had this discussion on other threads and insisting all cards are tabled in showdown order, will prevent a lot of the stalling tactics that we see in every tournament. well you'll have plenty of disagreement on that one

So it's a matter of weighing the costs and the benefits of any rule. For the reasons above, 1 being most important to me, I personally don't favor a switch. This is also an area that would require alot of player support to put through I think... but to the question, yes it would resolve alot of stuff.

Neil Johnson at Summit VI pretty well summed up the popularity this rule would have with players "... if I could get even one player to agree to it..."

« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 03:13:23 PM by MikeB »