Author Topic: Dealer error... now what??  (Read 16104 times)

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2013, 06:25:15 AM »
So I'm in no way in favor like you and many others, of letting the SB win the hand in this spot.

Just so that we are clear, as far as characterizing my position, you mean letting the other player win the pot (the player that still has cards), yes?

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This is a situation where a bet was called verbally, heard by two players, but not the whole table and not even the dealer, nor were there any chips pushed into the pot to make the call.

So, are you saying that IF the chips had been pushed into the pot to make the call, you would let the player still with cards win the whole pot?

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Dealer had looked for other hands, did not see any, pushed the pot to me

So, what if there was NO evidence that the other player's cards were covered or hidden?

Let's change the situation slightly -- what if the player who was pushed the pot even admitted as much (e.g. "I didn't notice if he had cards still, I wasn't looking"; "Yeah, I saw he still had cards, but so what, the dealer pushed me the pot"), would you still allow the pot to be awarded as pushed or split the pot?

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pushing someone a pot simple because they have cards, when they haven't called all bets and the pot has been pushed, is absolute craziness.

In making your point, you very cleverly ignored the most important part of my summary:

"if an opponent's cards are in plain view, and especially if the called chips were put forth in plain view, I believe players have a responsibility to know what that means... there is still action pending"

IMO, all of these types of situations are... situational.  I don't think that someone should be pushed the pot simply because they have cards; on the other hand, I don't think the player who doesn't have cards should automatically deserve any protection simply because the dealer makes an error.  

If a player's cards aren't hidden (unlike your situation, there was no evidence that cards were hidden in the original post, and if there was, the decision would be different), but the pot is about to be pushed elsewhere because the dealer isn't paying attention, you really don't think the player about to receive the pot has any obligation to point out the error to the dealer and the table before allowing the dealer to take his cards?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 06:34:30 AM by K-Lo »

Tristan

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2013, 02:51:47 PM »
Hi all - I am new here. Had an interesting situation the other night and would like feed back. NLH tournament. Blinds are at 500/1k. 5 players limp to see the flop. SB (seat 4) bets 4K. next to act is the 8 seat, who says call very softly, without moving. 9 and 10 seat hear her call and fold instanly. The other player in the 3 seat also folds. The dealer puts down the stub, pushes the pot to the sb as the caller is counting her chips out for the call. SB mucks INTO the muck since the pot has been pushed to her. 8 seat says "I called", and dealer realizes he missed the verbal and the fact that another player still had cards, but SB cards are deep in the muck and unidentifiable. Now what?

Perhaps my interpretation of the scenario is different than others.  The way it was laid out, I envision seat 8, with cards in plain view, saying call and then looking down to cut out their chips.  Meanwhile the other players fold and while the dealer is pushing the pot, 2 things happen.  The SB mucks their own cards and seat 8, presumably in the process of pushing out the amount of the call, notices what is going on and voices a protest.

I only see 2 mistakes there.  Seat 8 did absolutely no wrong as far as I can tell from the information provided.  The dealer started pushing the pot too soon...that is a mistake.  I see that mistake at least 2-3 times a week and that is only when the pot gets intermingled with a players stack.  Usually the dealer will catch it before it gets that far.  The other mistake was the SB mucking their own cards before the hand was complete.  Undeniably their 'mistake' was caused by the dealers mistake...but can we be 100% sure that it was a mistake??  I say no...if they were bluffing it is a perfect angle shot to throw their cards into the muck and hope to keep the pot (or hope Thomas is the TD and they get half of it ;D ). 

I cannot see taking away half of a pot from a player that seemingly did no wrong because of a mistake by a dealer and a mistake by the other player that may or may not have been an actual mistake. 

Why I see it that way:
It is titled dealer error.
Multiple players heard seat 8 say call.
No mention was made of hidden cards.
A valid reason was given on why seat 8 missed the pot being pushed too soon.
The SB, not the dealer, mucked their cards too soon.


Had the cards been hidden or if the dealer had also been the one to muck the SB's hand, I would view the situation differently.  If we start to make chopping the pot the norm in this case, we are encouraging the SB to remain silent and muck quickly unless they have a good hand.  We create a large angle that cannot be fixed...and it could be argued that the situation will not happen that often, but I would counter that with saying that if chopping here is the norm...this 'mistake' will happen more often than it does now.

I usually agree with what you Thomas, but here I think maybe you are letting your previous bad experience influence the way you view this scenario.  I don't view what happened to you as the same as what happened here.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 02:58:40 PM by Tristan »
Tristan
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2013, 08:36:53 PM »
Hi all - I am new here. Had an interesting situation the other night and would like feed back. NLH tournament. Blinds are at 500/1k. 5 players limp to see the flop. SB (seat 4) bets 4K. next to act is the 8 seat, who says call very softly, without moving. 9 and 10 seat hear her call and fold instanly. The other player in the 3 seat also folds. The dealer puts down the stub, pushes the pot to the sb as the caller is counting her chips out for the call. SB mucks INTO the muck since the pot has been pushed to her. 8 seat says "I called", and dealer realizes he missed the verbal and the fact that another player still had cards, but SB cards are deep in the muck and unidentifiable. Now what?

Perhaps my interpretation of the scenario is different than others.  The way it was laid out, I envision seat 8, with cards in plain view, saying call and then looking down to cut out their chips.  Meanwhile the other players fold and while the dealer is pushing the pot, 2 things happen.  The SB mucks their own cards and seat 8, presumably in the process of pushing out the amount of the call, notices what is going on and voices a protest.

I usually agree with you Thomas, but here I think maybe you are letting your previous bad experience influence the way you view this scenario.  I don't view what happened to you as the same as what happened here.
I was kinda joking about the read it again thing. But I highlighted the quote from the original post determines my decision and I'll recopy here.
 
SB mucks INTO the muck since the pot has been pushed to her.

The words 'since the pot has been pushed to her', which means to me, the dealer has completed pushing the pot. But that's not the sole thing. In addition, the player with cards who says they called, has not put any chips in the pot. How do you make a call, not put any chips in the pot, let the action fold around, let the dealer push the pot, let the dealer muck the board presumably, let the SB player muck their hand and then decide to speak up and let the dealer know that you called? How is it that NONE of the other players tried to stop the dealer from doing all of this knowing that Seat 8 said call? And then, after all that happens, you're going to get called over and you're going to tell the SB player "Sorry Charlie" you lose the pot and all your chips in that pot. And then, you get to tell the SB player, I'm sorry you should have not mucked your hand after the receiving the pot. I'm sorry that you've made a mistake, you shouldn't muck after receiving the pot. You should know that. Or you should know that another player called when there's no chips in the pot. That's your mistake.

That's just nonsense.

 K-lo in his above reply wants to change the situation a little bit, so lets suppose that the SB is deaf. They see the pot pushed them and release their cards toward the muck because that's what you do when you get pushed the pot. You release your hand. Now what? How do you protect the SB player?

You actually believe that the SB getting pushed the pot creates an angle play by the SB to muck their hand so they can get their chips back? Com'on guys.

If there's any angle play here, it's seat 8 saying call and not putting any chips into the pot, the letting the dealer do all that they did, including letting the SB muck their cards AFTER receiving the pot and then saying "Hey I've got cards" in order to win the entire pot. If any player is going to angle shoot, they're going to angle shoot for the entire pot, not half of a pot.

Just my view. I do what I can to be fair. Rule #1 trumps all other rules IMO.

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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2013, 09:03:53 PM »
So I'm in no way in favor like you and many others, of letting the SB win the hand in this spot.

Just so that we are clear, as far as characterizing my position, you mean letting the other player win the pot (the player that still has cards), yes?
No I mean, not letting the small blind win the pot entirely.
Quote
This is a situation where a bet was called verbally, heard by two players, but not the whole table and not even the dealer, nor were there any chips pushed into the pot to make the call.

So, are you saying that IF the chips had been pushed into the pot to make the call, you would let the player still with cards win the whole pot?
[/quote]
Yes, because as many TD's like to say, "It's a visual game." Nobody says "It's a verbal game". They say, "Verbal is binding" but that is in regards to binding action.

Quote
Dealer had looked for other hands, did not see any, pushed the pot to me

So, what if there was NO evidence that the other player's cards were covered or hidden?

Let's change the situation slightly -- what if the player who was pushed the pot even admitted as much (e.g. "I didn't notice if he had cards still, I wasn't looking"; "Yeah, I saw he still had cards, but so what, the dealer pushed me the pot"), would you still allow the pot to be awarded as pushed or split the pot?
[/quote]
These are the question I like to ask too. A mini interrogation.
For #1 - "I didn't notice" - my next question is going to be, "Well were they hidden?" That usually leads to my decision one way or another and I'll probably ask another question based on their response, before a final decision. 

For #2 - "I saw he had cards" - my question is going to be, "And what made you think they folded?". If I get this response, they just lost the pot. It's no different than a judge listening to someone plead their case. So many times on these TV court shows you see Party A suing Part B. Party A says, "I loaned Party B money". Party B denies this. The judge then says to Party B, "Tell how it came about that Party A gave you money?" "Blah blah blah and I said I'd pay them back, but I didn't sign any papers that said it was a loan!" Uh..... ya pal. You just said you'd pay them back. That's a loan. You lose Party B.
Quote

pushing someone a pot simple because they have cards, when they haven't called all bets and the pot has been pushed, is absolute craziness.

In making your point, you very cleverly ignored the most important part of my summary:

"if an opponent's cards are in plain view, and especially if the called chips were put forth in plain view, I believe players have a responsibility to know what that means... there is still action pending"

IMO, all of these types of situations are... situational.  I don't think that someone should be pushed the pot simply because they have cards; on the other hand, I don't think the player who doesn't have cards should automatically deserve any protection simply because the dealer makes an error.  

If a player's cards aren't hidden (unlike your situation, there was no evidence that cards were hidden in the original post, and if there was, the decision would be different), but the pot is about to be pushed elsewhere because the dealer isn't paying attention, you really don't think the player about to receive the pot has any obligation to point out the error to the dealer and the table before allowing the dealer to take his cards?
[/quote]
I think they a responsibility if they are aware. Because this is a post and we weren't there we have to presume that the SB player is unaware. We do know that it was a multi-way pot. It wasn't heads up. That's a factor to me. In heads up I fully expect the SB player to know if the other player has cards. In a multi-way pot, not necessarily the case.
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K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2013, 09:24:30 PM »
So despite the post before last, from the last post it seems that we aren't actually that far apart in opinion.  We are probably all reading things into the question that are unknown - Thomas assumes that the SB was unaware and had no reason to think it was called (perhaps the cards were hidden in addition to no chips being put out), where Tristan and I assumed that the cards were in plain view and that SB should at least ought to have been aware of them since they were not hidden. Since none of us were there, we do not know what happened. 

Nevertheless, the last post, I believe, shows where we have common ground. I think much earlier in this thread I suggested that the SB really ought to have been asked something to the effect "why did you fold when this player clearly still had cards"?  The question really needs to be asked by the TD, and the SB needs to give a satisfactory answer in order to save himself. 

Even more important, I think we agree that if a caller's chips are pushed forward and someone else mucks thinking they have won, it is going to be much more difficult for the SB to answer the question "and what made you think they folded" satisfactorily.

Tristan

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2013, 12:21:28 PM »
Hi all - I am new here. Had an interesting situation the other night and would like feed back. NLH tournament. Blinds are at 500/1k. 5 players limp to see the flop. SB (seat 4) bets 4K. next to act is the 8 seat, who says call very softly, without moving. 9 and 10 seat hear her call and fold instanly. The other player in the 3 seat also folds. The dealer puts down the stub, pushes the pot to the sb as the caller is counting her chips out for the call. SB mucks INTO the muck since the pot has been pushed to her. 8 seat says "I called", and dealer realizes he missed the verbal and the fact that another player still had cards, but SB cards are deep in the muck and unidentifiable. Now what?
Yep, like I said earlier...I think it is our interpretation that is different.  My bolded part below in the OP's example, happened before the SB mucked.  That implies, to me, that there were chips being put forward.  Which then leads me to believe that seat 8 is doing nothing that could be an angle.  Say call, start putting out chips for the call, and then protest when the pot gets pushed incorrectly.  What else can you do??

I think we all agree that if the situation is slightly different, we would make rulings according with the circumstances.  I stress again, this is my ruling based on the above interpretation.

Hi all - I am new here. Had an interesting situation the other night and would like feed back. NLH tournament. Blinds are at 500/1k. 5 players limp to see the flop. SB (seat 4) bets 4K. next to act is the 8 seat, who says call very softly, without moving. 9 and 10 seat hear her call and fold instanly. The other player in the 3 seat also folds. The dealer puts down the stub, pushes the pot to the sb as the caller is counting her chips out for the call. SB mucks INTO the muck since the pot has been pushed to her. 8 seat says "I called", and dealer realizes he missed the verbal and the fact that another player still had cards, but SB cards are deep in the muck and unidentifiable. Now what?
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2013, 01:37:09 PM »
Thomas,

 I agree with your earlier comment, I will quote you:  "How can you possibly blame any player for releasing their hand after they have received the pot? HOW? When are you supposed to release your cards to the dealer if not after they've pushed the pot to you? After the dealer checks under every players hand and under the rail? When? That's preposterous that you're going to penalize them for following the rules of being pushed the pot."

 That was your original response, and I'm sure that would have been the action you would have taken. Don't let anyone change your mind.