Author Topic: Dealer error... now what??  (Read 20118 times)

Pokerbug13

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Dealer error... now what??
« on: August 11, 2013, 02:03:34 AM »
Hi all - I am new here. Had an interesting situation the other night and would like feed back. NLH tournament. Blinds are at 500/1k. 5 players limp to see the flop. SB (seat 4) bets 4K. next to act is the 8 seat, who says call very softly, without moving. 9 and 10 seat hear her call and fold instanly. The other player in the 3 seat also folds. The dealer puts down the stub, pushes the pot to the sb as the caller is counting her chips out for the call. SB mucks INTO the muck since the pot has been pushed to her. 8 seat says "I called", and dealer realizes he missed the verbal and the fact that another player still had cards, but SB cards are deep in the muck and unidentifiable. Now what?

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 08:07:19 AM »
Hi Pokerbug -

SB will lose the pot here. It is unfortunate that the dealer made an error and effectively induced SB to fold by pushing him or her the pot prematurely.

However, it is ultimately the player's responsibility to protect their own hand and that includes being aware of the action, which in turn includes being aware of which players at the table have not folded and thus still have cards in their possession.

In this case, seat 8, being the last player with cards, would be awarded the pot, including the SB's full bet of 4K which has been duly called [see Rule 56, also see new Rule 13 B]. For what it's worth, if the SB's cards were still clearly retrievable and identifiable despite making a motion to fold, they would be given back to the SB, and the hand would be played out.

K

Tristan

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 11:26:29 AM »
Agreed.
Tristan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 02:28:14 AM »
Agreed

Nick C

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 07:10:30 AM »
I'm having a problem with this one...There are a few rules that we could apply that would not support awarding the pot to the silent raiser.

 TDA #2, in part make your intentions clear...and especially:

 Play: Bets & Raises

37: Verbal Bet Declarations / Acting in Turn / Undercalls

B: Players should wait for clear bet amounts before acting. Ex: A says “raise” (but states no
amount), and B and C quickly fold. B and C should wait to act until A’s exact raise amount is
clear. All-in buttons can greatly reduce undercall frequency.

I have a tough time killing a players hand, when the dealer induces the action. Especially when the player was pushed the pot, before they mucked. Also, how long does it take the silent caller to put 4000 into the pot? Sometimes verbal is not good enough...I prefer the forward movement of chips.

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 07:38:05 AM »
Unfortunately, when you introduce dealer error in the equation, someone is going to have to pay for that error and whoever it is, he is not going to be happy with the ruling. 

Tristan

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 08:51:38 AM »
next to act is the 8 seat, who says call very softly, without moving. 9 and 10 seat hear her call and fold instanly.

I would say her intentions were clear enough as multiple people heard her.

One way or another you going to upset someone with this call. 

If no one heard seat 8 say call, I would have ruled their hand dead.  If the SB's cards were retrievable I would allow them to play.  From the sounds of it, though, neither of those things happened...so the pot goes to seat 8.
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Nick C

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 12:01:20 PM »
Tristan,
 The pot goes to seat 8 when you're on the floor ;D

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 09:18:29 PM »
So I had a very similar situation tonight.  Although the ruling is pretty much "standard" now, players still get upset....

8 handed table.  Blinds are 2000-4000.  Seat 8 has the SB, Seat 1 has the BB.  Action folds around to seat 6 who goes all-in for ~12000. Seats 7 and 8 fold.

Dealer forgets that the BB is in seat 1 and has not yet acted, and pushes the pot to Seat 6.  Seat 6, seeing the pot pushed to her, releases her hand, which gets irretrievably mucked by the dealer.

Seat 1 points out that she still has cards, and the dealer admits his error.  Seat 1's cards are still beneath a chip protector in front of her, and there was no indication that her cards were not in plain view to the table.

I ruled that the pot goes to seat 1, being the last person with live cards; seat 6 will lose the amount of the call (4000) but the rest of her wager (i.e. the uncalled portion of the all-in bet) is returned. 

Seat 6 now has a few choice words for seat 1 ("why didn't you say anything while the pot was being pushed"), and wanted us to retrieve her (untabled) cards from the muck.  She feels she shouldn't have to protect her hand once she is all-in and the pot is pushed to her.  I explain that even though she is all-in, unfortunately, this does not relieve her of the obligation to protect her hand, and this includes ensuring that everyone else has folded.  Unfortunately, since her cards are deep in the muck and were not tabled, I am obliged to award the pot to the player who still has live cards, despite the dealer error. 

Would anyone else have handled this differently?  Seat 6 was livid.


Nick C

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 10:52:56 PM »
Ken,

 I guess you didn't read my earlier reply. I'm sorry, I don't see it that way. If the dealer pushes you the pot, it's yours. We have TD's that are awarding pots to players that muck their damn cards...and now we want to kill a hand that was pushed before the cards were mucked? I'm sorry guys, this is another one that doesn't sit well with me. When the dealer gives you the pot, you're supposed to muck your hand. No mention of the "slow to react player" not stopping the error? Sorry...too many double standards.

 The division between tournament poker and cash games is growing with each new rule.

RockyPhillips

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 04:54:53 AM »
Wow! I always tell players never release your hand until pot is pushed to you.
Rule #1 will/must/have to play here, nothing else could be acceptable.

Nick C

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 06:16:18 AM »
Rocky it's good to hear from you but, I'm not sure I understand exactly how you feel about K-Lo's situation? You say that you always tell player's to never release their hands until the pot is pushed to them. Therefore, I will take your statement as not agreeing with the way K-Lo handled it, right?

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 07:45:26 AM »
As far as I could tell, the player that still had cards was not at fault. The dealer and mucker acted very quickly before seat 1 could do anything.  My guess is that both the dealer and the mucker may have simply forgot someone was sitting on the other side of the table, and once the player to the right of the dealer folded, it went "push-muck" right away.

Nick - I see your point. And you are right, if this was a cash game situation, we definitely would have more leeway. I am pretty sure the decision is "standard" now (correct me if I'm wrong), for better or worse.  As I'm sure you are aware, more and more responsibility is being put on players now despite dealer error (accepted action!)  ::).

But maybe there does need to be further consideration on this one since there is an element of dealer error here, with a dealer prematurely pushing the pot.  Let's think about this one a bit. I think a few issues need to be addressed here:

1. While it is true that we are killing seat 6's hand, and that is a crappy reason to kill a hand especially since the dealer induced the error, if we allow seat 6 to keep the pot, then are we not effectively killing seat 1's hand?  Seat 1 hasn't done anything wrong.  Now if seat 1 was hiding her cards, and that contributed to the error, then you could definitely take that into account. But if there is no evidence of that and she was just sitting there, with cards in plain view, and it was her turn to the act as BB, she looks down at her cards and hesitates for a moment to consider her action - yet meanwhile the dealer has pushed the pot -- on her turn-- and seat 6 happily grabbed the pot, what makes seat 6 "more" innocent than seat 1 here?  

2. Does it matter that when you come to the table to make your decision, that seat 1 is the only player with live, identifiable cards?  

3. Are you going to dig through the muck to search for a hand that has not been tabled?  Do you take the word of seat 6 that she will accurately tell you the cards that she has?  What if she tells you which cards that she has and you cannot find them in the muck?  We've been through this whole issue before, and no one goes through the muck any more.

4. The problem is that we potentially have two innocent parties here that have both been screwed by the dealer.  Therefore, I have to ask: Who is in a better spot to protect their hand?

You open the action with a raise in late position, and hope to steal the blinds.  It's late in the tournament, blinds are big, you are hoping that everyone folds.  The button folds (yes!)... the small blind folds (whew!)... you look over at the big blind and hope he folds as well... you wait silently as the big blind peels up his cards... meanwhile you notice that the dealer has pushed you the pot!  
Are you taking this pot, or do you say "wait, the big blind hasn't acted"?  Unless the big blind is hiding cards, I find it much harder to accept that the raiser, who was attempting a steal of the blinds, was not paying attention to whether the blinds have folded.  And if she wasn't paying attention, IMO, she ought to have been.  I have to consider the (in my mind, much more likely) possibility that the raiser knew full well that the action was not yet completed, but accepted the pot anyways to try to "force the win". I call this "willful blindness", and I don't think it's something that we can reward.

5. Is there any merit to the argument that in a situation analogous to the skipped player situations that we have been discussing, that the dealer and seat 6 are essentially "acting out of turn" here, and that seat 1, who is acting in turn, may be worthy of protection rather than having her hand automatically killed?

I think it's this last point that perhaps may actually be the strongest argument for those who favor letting the raiser keep the pot.  Seat 1 does have an obligation to preserve her right to act if she is about to be skipped. There may be analogous "skipped player" situations, some which give the skipped player the benefit of the doubt if not enough time has passed to stop the action, while other suggest the hand may be ruled dead. For example, if the dealer makes a mistake and prematurely deals the next board card, the rules allow for the action to be completed and the board card to be redealt.  Is this an analogous situation?  Alternatively, if the dealer prematurely deals the next board card and there is further action, then many TDs will rule that the skipped hand would be dead if there was an outstanding bet that had not yet been called on the previous street.  Is this similar?

I think on balance, unless the skipped player is hiding her cards, I personally think more of the fault has to lie with the raiser here -- unless there is some way to give skipped players more time to speak up.  It's too bad we don't get dealers to announce something like "last chance to speak up before I award the pot", before pushing the pot. 

Would anybody consider an even more creative solution... e.g. would you consider looking at the Big Blind's cards and trying to determine if they may have folded?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 07:57:32 AM by K-Lo »

Tristan

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2013, 08:22:50 AM »
I think if the standard was the opposite, that a pot pushed stays where it is...there would be a large security concern regarding dealers.  "Oops, I thought the hand was over and I pushed this pot to this guy that always hooks me up with big tips!" or "Man, this guy always takes so long to make a decision...I'll show him!" *Pushes pot to other player*.

Plus, as K-Lo pointed out, I'm not so sure the mucked player was so innocent in most of these cases.  When I put all my chips at risk, I keep pretty close tabs on who is still in the hand...especially the blinds. 

With that being said, I'm not opposed to other creative solutions...I just don't think keeping the, mistakenly pushed, pot in the wrong spot is the right move.
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error... now what??
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2013, 10:21:39 AM »
I think if the standard was the opposite, that a pot pushed stays where it is...there would be a large security concern regarding dealers.  "Oops, I thought the hand was over and I pushed this pot to this guy that always hooks me up with big tips!" or "Man, this guy always takes so long to make a decision...I'll show him!" *Pushes pot to other player*.

Yes, exactly. 

By the way, I polled a few other TDs off this board.  Same decision.