Author Topic: 4 cases in 1  (Read 5664 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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4 cases in 1
« on: October 18, 2012, 04:27:25 AM »
Hello,
Here is a case divided in 4 close examples on which I’d love to have your advices please.
I KNOW that each situation depend always on a lots of circumstancies & details.
But PLEASE, I would like the “generic” answer on each of them if possible.
I mean the BASIC ruling before any other detail is discovered.
OK
NLH tourney at flop:
Player A check
Player B bets 1.000 (stack of 50.000)
Player C Raises all-in 10.000
Player A folds
Then suddenly player C says “I win” throwing his hand in the middle faces down.
He apparently forgot and skipped player B
CASE 1: Before any reaction of B, the dealer stops and protects the folded hand.
CASE 2: Before any reaction of B, the dealer takes the folded hand and mixes it in the muck.
CASE 3: Player B says “I call” pushing his stack then the dealer stops and protects the folded hand.
CASE 4: Player B says “I call” pushing his stack then the dealer takes the folded hand and mixes it in the muck.
PS: remember in cases 3&4 that player C said “I win” and throw his hand BEFORE player B says “I call” and push.
I know some of those exemples may be similar or useless …But I wanna be sure.
Please, no useless answers like “Fire the dealer” or “This will not happen”!
TY so much.
GG

K-Lo

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 05:52:56 AM »
Hello GG:  Hope things are well.

Quote
I KNOW that each situation depend always on a lots of circumstancies & details.
But PLEASE, I would like the “generic” answer on each of them if possible.
I mean the BASIC ruling before any other detail is discovered.

Case 1:  Hand is live and returned to C, play continues.
Case 2:  Hand is dead, C loses 1,000, uncalled portion of 9,000 returned to C.
Case 3:  Hand is live and returned to C.  Ask players to turn cards over (all-in), deal out board.
Case 4:  Hand is dead, C has failed to protect his hand and is out.

K

Nick C

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 06:24:23 AM »
Hello Guillaume,

 I agree with K-Lo on all situations. You notice that the hands that remain live were the ones that were saved by the dealer.


Stuart Murray

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2012, 06:54:15 AM »
Case 1:  Hand is live and returned to C, play continues.
Case 2:  Hand is dead, C loses 1,000, uncalled portion of 9,000 returned to C.
Case 3:  Hand is live and returned to C.  Ask players to turn cards over (all-in), deal out board.
Case 4:  Hand is dead, C has failed to protect his hand and is out.

K

^^ Agreed with this.

Regards
Stuart

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2012, 04:07:43 PM »
OK TY ... You all agree with your answers.

I try to adapt to the new ruling giving back the uncalled part of the bet (#2) ... and I will.

But it's hard because until now I used to only give back the uncalled part of the bet when the hand was accidentally killed by SOMEONE ELSE (the dealer or another player). But when the player was throwing HIMSELF the cards forward and when the dealer did the error of mucking unstead of protecting it, I used to give all the pot to the opponent.

If not it's too easy: I bluff ---> I feel that I'm gonna be called ---> Before any reaction of my opponent I fold and try to muck or have my cards mucked to take back the uncalled part of my bluff ... !

But OK: I will follow your majority. And thank you so much to have "played the game": Kick and direct answers the way I like it!

Best regards,
GG

Nick C

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 07:12:54 AM »
GG,

 If you think about the difference between what you explained in example 2, and your last reply about your bluff, I think the first example clearly states that Player C mucked before any reaction from Player B. You would have to question why a player would give up any chance for the pot by raising, and folding?
 Your last situation is quite different. You said; you think it could be too easy (to take your bet back) if you were bluffing, and you felt that you were going to be called. think of what would have to occur:
                     1.   If Player B said "I call" it would be too late  for Player C to even muck.
                     2.   What if your opponent was acting like he was going to call, just to get a reaction from you? With no real intention to call? You might save your raise amount, but you would lose the pot.
                     3.   If the dealer prevented you from mucking, he could have saved you from: possibly winning the pot or; being called and losing the complete amount.
I really think it would be much too risky for any player to attempt such an unethical way to save a few chips, with no chance at winning the pot.
I'd like to know how you would accomplish such a move. Why don't you try it some time and let me know how it works for you? 8)  I'm kidding, of course. It's a great question that makes you think about so many scenario's that can occur in any game. Remember that in order for most of these unusual circumstances to happen, there has to be a mistake made by the player, or both the player and the dealer. If the dealer does his job, the integrity of the game is preserved.


K-Lo

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 07:58:23 AM »
Nick has good points.  Although theoretically a person could try the angle that GG is suggesting and hope everything goes right just to save that uncalled portion, even if he succeeds he will never win the main pot.  It's kind of strange to bluff in order to try to win that main pot, and suddenly then just give up on it and surrender the main pot to your opponent without the opponent having to do anything.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 09:21:22 AM by K-Lo »

Tristan

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 11:12:52 AM »
Not to mention that a competent dealer would protect the all-in hand...since it would have to be shown in the case of a call.  Risky to try to bluff and angle shoot when most times it should fail.
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2012, 02:13:49 PM »
Tristan,

 What do you mean when you said, "not to mention that a competent dealer would have protected the all-in?

 I think I did mention it on my first reply; "I agree with K-Lo on all situations. You notice that the hands that remain live were the ones that were saved by the dealer."
.

Tristan

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2012, 04:21:41 PM »
Oh for sure Nick.  I wasn't saying anything towards you, I was just talking about how unlikely it would be that that could be an angle shot by the all-in player.  Even if the all-in player mucks their cards, the dealer should protect them at that point...so it is a very improbable angle that they would purposely muck to save part of their stack.

Tristan
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: 4 cases in 1
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 04:19:55 AM »
Hello GG:  Hope things are well.

Quote
I KNOW that each situation depend always on a lots of circumstancies & details.
But PLEASE, I would like the “generic” answer on each of them if possible.
I mean the BASIC ruling before any other detail is discovered.

Case 1:  Hand is live and returned to C, play continues.
Case 2:  Hand is dead, C loses 1,000, uncalled portion of 9,000 returned to C.
Case 3:  Hand is live and returned to C.  Ask players to turn cards over (all-in), deal out board.
Case 4:  Hand is dead, C has failed to protect his hand and is out.

K
Absolutely nailed it.
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