Take this poll, settle a disagreement.

[EbroTim]

Hi guys. Please take this poll to help settle a disagreement a coworker and I have.

Preflop at 100/200 blinds, all players either fold or call to the small blind. The small blind, who had a 500 chip out as his small blind, throws another 500 chip out on his turn. Is this a call or a raise?

My coworker contends that this is only a call because only 100 of the original 500 chip was in play. His logic is that if the SB had only 100 in play, then throwing a 500 chip out would only be deemed a call due to the oversize chip rule.

I, however, contend that this is a misapplication of the oversize chip rule. I also contend that if the player had intended to call, he would simply have pushed his 500 chip forward, tapped the felt, or said call. Never would a player throw out another 500 chip to indicate a call.

What do you think?

[Stuart Murray]

It can be either or, there is no right or wrong answer, due to the player failing to make his intent clear.  I would probably let it go as a raise to 600 total, but it really is one that can go anyway and is at the mercy of the floor.

Regards
Stuart

[Nick C]

I say it is a raise. Why else would he toss another 500 into the pot? How much... could be negotiable? but a raise it would be.

[K-Lo]

Agreed with Stuart, that the player is at the TDs mercy. 

The oversized chip rule is one of those rules which I feel I am forced to ignore intent because of the language of the rule.  Let's say the SB was only in for 100, and had a huge stack of 100s behind, and then threw out a 500 chip.  If intent were the only consideration here, then this seems like a clear raise to me, otherwise wouldn't he just throw another 100 in?  But the rule says call.

In this case, the SB is facing a bet, and he threw in a single oversized chip.  I am not 100% comfortable with it, but I feel like the rule is clear, and I would probably rule this a call.  If he had taken back the 500 and threw them both in simultaneously, then I would rule this a raise.  Easier for player to verbalize his intention, for sure.  I say this now, but who knows.  It's highly situational, and a raise to 600 sounds defensible too.

On a related note, how would you feel if the SB was a beginner, asked the dealer "how much to me"?  Dealer replies, "you are in for 100, it is 100 to call".  Player says, "100 to call?" Dealer nods.  Player throws in 500 chip.  Does the prior conversation sway your ruling?

[Nick C]

I must be missing something. If the SB were calling, wouldn't he just say call and wait for his 300 change? How do you put 2 chips out totaling 1000 and expect that to be a call?

 K-Lo, are you telling me that the new player didn't know his chip was 500?

 I think in order to give the best answer to the original question, I'd like to know how the dealer interpreted that action?

[Tristan]

A strict interpretation of this rule would be a call.  I believe there was another thread that was on here that thoroughly went over this, but K-Lo already summed it up. "Any time a player is faced with a bet and throws out a single over-sized chip, without verbalization, it is a call." 

It might help to think about it like this...The player has 100 bound to the pot, the dealer owes them 400 change.  The action should not be affected by whether or not the dealer has given that change yet.

Pretty understandable if a TD rules the other way though, as the others have pointed out.

[K-Lo]

Common sense = raise.
Strictly "by the book" = call, I think.

I hear you Nick.  Guess it depends on who the players are.  To be honest, if I was in a bad mood, I may just hold it as a "call" and tell the guy to say "raise" next time; if I was in a good mood, maybe I'd allow the raise and just warn him to say "raise" (and preferably the amount) next time for clarity. 

Why won't people just say "raise"?  (Am I sounding like Nick now?  )

[Nick C]

K-Lo,

 You're starting to come around , (just kidding)

 TDA #36 Last line: It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear. TDA #39 Multiple Chip Betting: When facing a bet, unless a raise is first declared, multiple same-denomination chips is a call IF removing one chip leaves less than the call amount....
 
 The fact that removing one chip leaves enough for a raise, would indicate the additional chip constitutes a raise. I also want to know what Tristan and K-Lo would call  if they were dealing?  I'll bet that the action would have been clarified.

[Tristan]

For sure!

[K-Lo]

TDA #39 Multiple Chip Betting: When facing a bet, unless a raise is first declared, multiple same-denomination chips is a call IF removing one chip leaves less than the call amount....
 

That's an interesting take that I hadn't thought of, Nick.  The action in the original post itself involves a single chip, so Rule #38 seems more applicable, but I hadn't thought about whether #39 could be applied.  There is no issue if they had taken back the 500 and then thrown both chips in at the same time, in a single motion - then #39 clearly applies.  But if the original 500 was already there... hmmm... does Rule #39 apply when the bet is essentially a "string" bet?

Anyways, the more I think about it, the more that I would probably lean towards the "common sense" ruling of a raise unless I'm feeling hard-ass, but I do think that the position of the "by-the-book" ruling being a call is justifiable.  

As an aside, I'm not a big fan of the oversized chip rule to begin with, despite being in the books since maybe the beginnings of time.  Personally, I would rather just treat the bet as unclear and ask for clarification.  It works better for beginners and in "fun" settings.  However, I do understand that with experienced players and in more formal games, often you need the "by-the-book" rulings to prevent accusations of bias and to minimize angle-shooting (e.g. clarifying the bet in a certain way depending upon the reaction).

[Nick C]

K-Lo,

 I have to repeat myself again because when I play-out the scenario in my head, I can't imagine the dealer just sitting there and not responding??? What would you do, if you were dealing and the SB player (with a 500 value chip in front of him) tossed another 500 into the pot? I'll tell you what you would have done, you would have said "hold on, what's this?" You would have gotten some clarification from the SB player and then called the floor for his ruling.

 I never did get an answer from Embro Tim as to what actually transpired between the dealer and player in the original post.

[Tristan]

However, I do understand that with experienced players and in more formal games, often you need the "by-the-book" rulings to prevent accusations of bias and to minimize angle-shooting (e.g. clarifying the bet in a certain way depending upon the reaction).

This is my concern...every time a floor or other TD makes a ruling other than "by the book" I hear about it...and it usually not the full story.  The more exceptions that are made, the more the players seem to think that they are being treated unfairly.  (I stole your smiley Nick!)

Like Nick is implying, a good dealer would have made this a simple call...and players verbalizing would also be great!

[EbroTim]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/brick-mortar/take-poll-settle-disagreement-1256642/

[EbroTim]

Those of you who haven't voted, please vote.  I'd like to get a larger sample size.

K-Lo, this was not a real life situation.  My coworker and I were discussing a hypothetical scenario only.

[K-Lo]

OK, EBro.  I support you!  Raise to 1000 it is!