Author Topic: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up  (Read 9910 times)

Luca P.

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A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« on: August 31, 2012, 04:17:14 AM »
Hi guys,
this is a common situation:
on the flop, player A moves all-in, and player B without announcing "call" or "fold" turns his hand face up, throwing them in the middle of the table.
What is this?
Call?
Fold?
Penality to B?
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Nick C

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Re: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2012, 05:16:21 AM »
Linker-Split,

 I can tell you what I would do if I were dealing; I'd assume the player is folding and go for the cards to put them in the muck! If that was not the intent of the player, they would learn a harsh lesson. If they beat me to the cards, and clarified their intention of calling, I would expect the floor to impose a warning and possibly a penalty. My decision is based on unclear action from any player, although there is no specific rule that applies to calling a bet.

 I am hopeful that the situation involved head to head action only.

Luca P.

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Re: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2012, 05:28:01 AM »
Linker-Split,

 I can tell you what I would do if I were dealing; I'd assume the player is folding and go for the cards to put them in the muck! If that was not the intent of the player, they would learn a harsh lesson. If they beat me to the cards, and clarified their intention of calling, I would expect the floor to impose a warning and possibly a penalty. My decision is based on unclear action from any player, although there is no specific rule that applies to calling a bet.

 I am hopeful that the situation involved head to head action only.

I think dealer should be trained to take cards and immediately put them into the muck.
That would be an harsh lesson of course.
What if B turns up AA? Would you rule this hand regardless the strenght of the hand? I think so
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Nick C

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Re: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2012, 09:23:25 AM »
Linker-Split,

 I know the message you are trying to get across with your example of the player holding aces. However, aces might not be that good of a hand with the current board. My suggestion keeps the decision on the player, not the dealer. There could be a nut straight on board with no flush possible, should we assume the player holding the aces knows that it is a split pot? Why not just say call? Players need to know the simple rules of the game. Protect your own hand! That means; if you are competing for the pot, don't toss it on the table without calling the bet in front of you.

 The final betting round is not that complicated. Act in turn, and make your intentions clear. If you have an interest in the pot, don't toss it in the direction of the muck, (face-up or not), because that is an indication that you have no intentions to compete for the pot.

 There are several prior posts that make reference to the dealers in these situations; they are not mind readers, help them out a little.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 09:52:50 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 09:50:07 AM »
I think if it is clear that the cards are being tossed into the center of the table like that face up without a verbal declaration of call, then I would likely treat it is an intention to muck, and muck the hand most of the time.

Practically speaking, however, there may be situations where some doubt may arise as to whether the player actually said call (e.g. Noisy room, dealer not paying attention, announcements going on, etc.), and I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the hand gets mucked and the player is adamant he said call.  I have seen situations where the dealer mucked a hand in this situation, but the player insisted he said call and everyone at the table confirmed it - apparently only the dealer didn't hear it and mucked the cards so fast that there was some doubt as to the actual hand.  Ugh. 

Anyways, I personally have no problem simply confirming with the player "fold?" before mucking the hand, or saying "fold" aloud and turning the exposed hand over - giving the player the chance to correct it before mucking the hand.

Nick C

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Re: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2012, 11:43:42 AM »
 I think my original reply is similar to K-Lo's response assuming the intent were to fold. The biggest problem that I've always had with these situations is; a player releasing their hand when it is live? Cards can be properly tabled without letting go of them. I would never think of allowing my cards to be that "unprotected!" I also like the idea of a confirmation from the dealer but, it also leans in the direction of too much assistance. This is far different from a player tossing a hand at the showdown. Players need to assist the dealers in these uncertain actions, or they could suffer the unfortunate consiquences.

arnaldo

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Re: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 06:40:22 PM »
Had a similar situation last week. Two players left with live cards. Player A bets, Player B re-raises. Player A throws card face-up toward pot, but he was showing the nutz. He claimmed he thought Player B only called his bet.

Nick C

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Re: A went all-in on flop, B just turned his hand face up
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2013, 08:40:33 PM »
arnaldo:

 My original thought was to award the amount of Player A's bet to the winner and disregard Player B's raise amount. There are always outrageous situations that complicate even the most simple situations. What if Player A did not realize that he had a nut hand and his intent was not to call? Always risky for any player to not follow proper player procedures.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 08:52:19 PM by Nick C »