Author Topic: Player not protecting his hand again!  (Read 7534 times)

Georg

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Player not protecting his hand again!
« on: January 27, 2010, 09:58:21 PM »
Had this situation today:
Seat 3 moves all in, 4 folds, seat 5 says call, dealer takes away his cards anyway (were not protected) and puts them in the muck (unretrievable), next 2 players fold and while the last player is thinking, seat 2 asks where his cards are. Dealer calls me.
I asked for his hand, he said he had AK but he couldn't remember the suits he just said they were black and red. I insisted, that he tells me the exact suit so I think he just guessed and said it was a King of Hearts and the Ace of clubs. I looked in the muck and found 3 Aces and 2 Kings, while the King of Hearts was there, the Ace of clubs wasn't. I ruled his hand dead. Player 1 had more chips so I busted player 2 from the tournament.

I still don't feel good about it. What are your thougths?

Georg

MikeB

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 12:25:03 AM »
Had this situation today:  Seat 3 moves all in, 4 folds, seat 5 says call, dealer takes away his cards anyway (were not protected) and puts them in the muck (unretrievable), next 2 players fold and while the last player is thinking, seat 2 asks where his cards are. Dealer calls me.
I asked for his hand, he said he had AK but he couldn't remember the suits he just said they were black and red. I insisted, that he tells me the exact suit so I think he just guessed and said it was a King of Hearts and the Ace of clubs. I looked in the muck and found 3 Aces and 2 Kings, while the King of Hearts was there, the Ace of clubs wasn't. I ruled his hand dead. Player 1 had more chips so I busted player 2 from the tournament.

I still don't feel good about it. What are your thougths? Georg

Hi Georg, I take from your description that it was player 5's cards that were accidentally mucked (you say it was player 2), but that doesn't have much bearing on my answer. First I'd stipulate a few things then draw a conclusion for a ruling: 1) This was an unprotected hand. Per TDA rules the player is not guaranteed any redress other than return of an uncalled bet, which we don't have here. 2) Any other consideration for their injury is purely on your house ethics and would fall under "the best interest of the game".  3) Given that the cards were unprotected, the player has contributed to this error and by so doing I personally don't think they have a "guaranteed right" to attempted card muck retrieval. 4) Given this, I'm not going to go out of my way here to try and retrieve these cards. IF they are quite separately visible and he could verify rank and suit without looking at them, then I might consider it.  But that consideration isn't guaranteed under these circumstances, at least in my mind as a judge here. 5) This situation is far from this standard. The cards are buried in the muck, I have zero reason to believe his claim to A-K (nor do I have any particular reason to doubt it either, but the burden surely has to be on the player). 6) I don't think it's fair to the other player to let this guy declare any 2 cards then have me go fishing for them. Bottom line here, as described I would most likely rule the cards dead.   This all said, accidentally mucked cards is always upsetting, it's about the worst situation we face but here I don't have another choice. I don't know what more yu could have done here, you followed your conscience and gave the guy more opportunities than he might have gotten elsewhere, no reason to second guess your decision to rule the cards dead IMO.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 12:27:55 AM by MikeB »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 02:13:29 AM »
Georg,

If I had looked at the muck pile it would have to be two cards only from the muck I was looking at.  If that's not your hand I would be making you play the board for your last hand (Only because you are all-in with a mucked hand)

I would most certainly not be looking through the whole muck pile unless the players hand was mucked as a result of misinformation.

Best Regards
Stuart

pokerfish

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 03:22:33 AM »
Hi,
Don't beat yourself up about this. You made a decision based on what you deemed fair. IMO you went above and beyond and perhaps too far to retrieve a hand he couldn't even identify. As we mentioned in a prior thread, you can't muck my hand EVER unless you wrestle them from me. His hand is dead.... it's sad, but he didn't exercise good protection or even moderate protection. Buy or comp him dinner and say you're sorry it happened. Suggest (at a later time) that he be more careful in the future. This rarely happens to the same player twice. Let yourself off the hook. This was the players fault, solely.
Jan
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Georg

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2010, 12:04:54 AM »
Thank you all for your opinions!

I did buy him a drink, and gave him a voucher for a tournament buy in. We talked about it and he said, that he understands my position, it just doesn't make it easier for him to bust out of the tournament without beeing beaten by a better hand. It might have helped, that other players on the table talked to him afterwards and said, that they have seen this happen also in other places and that it is a common decision.

Georg (feeling better now :-)

higavin

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 12:07:49 AM »
Georg,

If I had looked at the muck pile it would have to be two cards only from the muck I was looking at.  If that's not your hand I would be making you play the board for your last hand (Only because you are all-in with a mucked hand)

I would most certainly not be looking through the whole muck pile unless the players hand was mucked as a result of misinformation.

Best Regards
Stuart

Hi Stuart,

This is my second post on this forum and my second post about one of your posts.

I just want to say I have never met you and I am not tyrying to pick on you.  I am a dealer is a mlarge busy poker room with 4 years of experience and I am also a dual rate so I floor on occassion as well.

I wondered about your comment above in wich you say you would allow the all in player to play the board if his unprotected hand was mucked.

The TDA rule says the player will have no redress.  Isn;t giving him the chance to split the pot allowing him something the rule says he cannot have.

I hate DQing people from a tournament when it's an error and not some overt act such as collusion or cheating but the rules are very carefully wordded and tweeked to insure they are fair and unbiased.

The most common comment I hear from players other than the room is too cold is about what they perceive as inconsistent floor decisions.  I say perceive because usually the decision is different because the scenario is different.

If you aloow a player to play the board, other players will insist on the same treatment, whether they were all in or not.

"Hey, the swing shift floor let me play the board, why won't you?  It's the dealers fault he shouldn't have mucked my cards."

Again, just my own veiw point from the box and behind the box.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 12:53:11 PM »
Gavin,

A very valid point, however rule 1 of the Poker TDA ruleset requires TD's to consider the best interests of the game where unusual circumstances can often dictate the decision over technical rules.

This would be a very unusual circumstance where a player is loosing all their chips and to penalise them further by removing them from the tournament would be unduly harsh (IMO)  By allowing them to play the board for their last hand is IMO a fair and just mode of some kind of recompense for their hand being irratretrievable.

You will notice many TD's on this forum would make extra effort to retrieve the cards, whereas I would not, and being that you are a dealer you will recognise that from that there is not going to be very many situations where I would retrieve a mucked hand as I require my dealers to scramble to discards.  When making the decision to allow them to play the board I would also be ensuring the table has a clear and concise explanation as to why I am ruling in that way.  I understand what you are arguing about players returning when different floor staff are working however if the floor-staff are consistent and elaborate their thought process and decision making process it should be less common for players to question rulings.

I don't know if there is anyone else in the TD fraternity who would allow them to play the board perhaps we can have some feedback on this matter from others.

Regards
Stuart

chet

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 05:24:25 PM »
Stuart:

I have to respectfully disagree, unless the circumstances were really, really, really unusual.  Player 2 is far enough from the dealer that his/her cards would be very difficult to accidentally pull into the Muck.  The initial responsibility is with the player to protect his/her hand.  If we are going to minimize that responsibility why have the rule at all.  I have NEVER had a hand accidentally pulled into the muck, mainly because I NEVER let go of my cards, especially when seated to the dealers immediate left or right. 

I understand your desire to help this player, but do you do the same thing for every player, every time?  If it happened to the same player a couple events later would you rule the same? 

Besides the TDA Rules; RRoP, Chap 2, Section 3.4 Irregularities, sub 2 says, "You must protect your own hand at all times.  Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip or other object placed on top of them.  If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it."(emphasis added)

Not to belabor the point, but RRop, Chap 2, Section 3.3 Dead Hands, sub 1, says "Your hand is declared dead if:
... Sub (d), The hand does not contain the proper number of card for that particular game...." This section goes on to explain exceptions for Stud, Lowball and Draw.

Sorry, just my 2 sense worth (yes I know how it is supposed to be spelled)

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 08:33:42 AM »
I've had this situation come up on more than one occasion and unless the player can tell me exactly what they had their hand is dead because there are endless possibilities as to what the final outcome is.

If you have a situation where you have multiple cards in the muck that are the same (Aces, 10's, 5's, whatever the case is) and you give that player random cards, then it can change the course of the entire game. (When I say random I mean Ad instead of Ah, etc.)

If a player folds Ah and Ks and you give them the Ad and Ks and the board comes up giving that person the nuts, you now have a bad situation.

Yes, the TD has the final say and the best interests of the game are always in mind.

But it is the players responsibility to protect their cards at all times and they only have themselves to blame.

Anybody remember what happened in the WSOP where a player went All-In and her cards were mucked by the dealer because she didn't have them protected, and according to the player she had pocket Aces? This is the same situation whether it's WSOP rules or TDA rules.

pokerfish

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Re: Player not protecting his hand again!
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 10:51:35 AM »
Actually, our TD is being much more congenial in his attempt to "find the cards". In the WSOP situation you said "This is the same situation whether it's WSOP rules or TDA rules." she whispered her cards to Steve Frezer, the TD at the time, and pretty much was told "sorry this happened but your hand is dead". It was on TV so it was easy to replay and see that she (as sad as it was) had clearly failed to protect her hand.... the dealer even did a double take before mucking them. Now, a better dealer never would have killed this hand and hopefully suggested that they remain closer to the rail and protected... but that didn't happen. As the players become more educated hopefully these situations will become less frequent.
Jan
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