Show cards at showdown

[deagian]

I recently made a rulling on a cash game which in my opinion was correct, but some players are complaining it was a bad rulling so I would like to get a second opinion.
 
In a cash game, 2 players go to a showdown, Player A shows his hand and player B throws the cards facedown. The dealer did not have time to put the cards in the muckpile and player B takes back his cards and shows them face up revealing the winning hand. I got called by the dealer as Player A was insisting it was a mucked hand. I made sure that the cards did not touch the muck pile and awarded the pot to player B.
 
Our House rules state :
 
Dead Hands

    Your hand is declared dead if:
        You fold or announced that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.
        You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act after you (even if not facing a bet).
        The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game.
        You act on a hand with a joker as a holecard in a game not using a joker. (A player who acts on a hand without looking at a card assumes the liability of finding an improper card, as given in, irregularities, rule#8.)
        You are being timed, when facing a bet or raise and exceed the specified time limit.
        Cards thrown in the muck must be ruled dead.  We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player. (Might lead to abuse.)
        Cards thrown into another player’s hand are dead, whether they are faceup or facedown.

Do you agree with my rulling?

[chet]

Based on the House Rules you provided, I agree you made the correct ruling.  You might want to consider the following:

A.  Instruct your dealers to IMMEDIATELY take control of hands that are moved forward toward the muck (but don't reach the muck as in your example) and touch them to the muck to formally kill the hand.  OR
B.  Update your rules such that hands pushed forward towards the muck are "dead" regardless of whether they actually are pushed into the muck pile.  OR
C.  Leave your rules as they are.  (Personally I see nothing wrong with your existing rules.)  One of the things you need to remember is that with new and/or inexperienced players, they may move their cards all over the place because they don't know any better.  I have seen such movements be considered a fold (cards moved towards the muck) many times when folding was NOT the players intent.

Chet

[Nick C]

Gianpiero,

 I agree with Chet. The idea that we always strive for the best hand to win is key. I would have a talk with the dealer. The proper procedure is to kill any discarded hands immediately.
 You stated that Player B throws the cards facedown. Was he attempting to muck his hand? Are you sure? I don't know why Player B tossed his cards? Did he think Player A had a better hand? Did the dealer announce Player A's hand incorrectly? Or, did Player B misread his hand, and then realize that he had a winner? There are many different scenarios that could have occured. If they hit the muck face down before they were ever exposed, then I can understand why Player A was upset. Once the cards are retrieved, before touching the muck, and turned over I rule the hand is live.

Why didn't the dealer kill the hand?

Bottom line: Warn the players to protect their own hand and make sure that your dealers follow procedures and I guarantee your problems will diminish.

[Dave Lamb]

Gianpiero,

Chet and Nick made all pertinent points very nicely. I will just reinforce your decision to allow the hand to play. You are in compliance with your house rules and the best hand was awarded the pot at the showdown. Cannot do any better than that...

[Stuart Murray]

I agree with Chet, Nick and Dave, as it was the showdown, there is no such thing as folding your hand, all hands that reach a showdown are eligible to claim the pot, unless the player elects to muck them face down, the player did not cause a re-action from anyone else as his forward motion was the last action, and the cards were clearly identifiable and retrievable.

Just train your dealers to muck hands correctly to avoid such upsets in future.

Regards
Stuart

[Spence]

I recognize the fact that everyone is in consensus about the dealer needing to muck the hand to avoid these situations from happening but isn't it paramount above all else that the best hand win whenever possible? It's the only time that we will fish through the muck. It is the only time we allow players to retrieve hands. It seems to me that there should be no argument by any player when the best hand wins. Having one guy scream "He mucked his cards!" so he can win by technicality seems to me to be the problem. Along with educating the dealer I think some player education would be fair as well.

[JasperToo]

Spence, I think youre right, in that the players themselves need to be educated about when a fold is indeed a fold.  Or rather, when a hand is eligible to be ruled live.  BUt.. if it was paramount that the winning hand win every time then we should just deal face up and see what happens.  (though in this case everybody is in for all bets to the showdown - which I think is the real reason that most of us don't have a problem with those cards being called live and winning.)  Remember that this is a cash game, also, and it is up to the palyer to not make a mistake like folding/mucking when he has the best hand.  A lot of pots have been pushed because players have mucked thinking they lost or were the only player left.  That's on them.

I think it was the right ruling and I agree with Spence that players need some help understanding why the hand would be live and I think the dealers need to make grabbing "folded" cards asap.