Showing both cards at the end of the hand

[Pepper_W]

I'd like some input on an issue that has started to become more problematic in our game.  We run a smaller 25-50 player holdem tournament series.  Lately it has become a problem that players want to show only one card at the end of the hand and muck the remaining card if not challenged by another player.  We implemented a house rule that players "Must" turn up both cards at the end of the hand to win the pot.  We have researched the issue and it seems to be agreed upon by every set of rules I've read that players must show both cards to win the hand. 
I have had numerous complaints about players hiding one card under the other and have even had players show one card while throwing the other card into the muck face down without showing, expecting to win the hand.  I've had the same thing happen with players not turning up their cards in a showdown until the river card is revealed and then mucking a checked hand without showing.   Because of complaints from other players, I am considering strengthening this by implementing another house rule stating, "if a player does not show both cards at the end of the hand in a timely manner, another live player in the hand can call them on refusing to show both cards and kill their hand."
Before I do this I'd like some input as to the correctness of implementing such a rule and/or possible alternatives.  Since these are self-dealt games we don't have a strong dealer presence at the table to monitor the action closely.  When dealing I simply don't deal the rest of the hand until all hands are properly tabled, but it is impossible to get players themselves to be this aware of the action. 
Any suggestions?

[Stuart Murray]

Hi Pepper,

Showdown's are governed by several rules in the TDA:


Pots / Showdown
10.   Declarations. Cards speak. Verbal declarations regarding the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling her hand may be penalized.
11.   Face Up for All-Ins. All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action for the hand is complete. The dealer & players should insist on timely compliance with this rule.
12.   Showdown Order. In a non-all-in showdown, at the end of the last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet in the last round, the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise. In stud, the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first.
13.   Contested Showdown / Playing the Board. All hole cards must be shown to win a contested showdown, even if playing the board.
14.   Uncontested Showdown. In a non all-in showdown, when all opponent(s) cards have been mucked without being revealed, the last live hand wins. Opponents who muck at showdown without revealing their hands also lose the right to ask to see the winning hand.
15.   Asking to See a Hand. Except where house policy provides an express right to see a hand, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused.

Now if you have a house rule that both cards must be shown during showdown in order to win the pot, then that supercedes what is written above, and a player who shows one card and mucks the remainder of his hole card does no longer have a live hand, which is the same for TDA rules.

RE Contested Showdowns, both hole cards must be tabled.

A CONTESTED SHOWDOWN Falls into generally two categories:
1) An all-in player, therefore rule 11 applies to this
2) More than one player tables BOTH their hole cards.
In an CONTESTED SHOWDOWN, players must show BOTH hole cards in order to claim the pot.

AN UNCONTESTED SHOWDOWN is generally as follows:
1) A Player states they have XX and all other opponents muck their hands without any tabled hands
2) A player shows ONE of their hole cards, retaining the other face down, and all other players muck their hands - ie NOT CONTESTING THE SHOWDOWN

Example A), player A is heads-up on the river, bets and is called, shows a King which completes a gut-shot 4 card broadway straight, but does not show his other hole card, the other player (B) then mucks his cards, therefore not contesting the pot.  In this situation the pot goes to player A as he has the LAST LIVE HAND in an Uncontested Showdown, he is not claiming the pot by having a broadway straight, as he has not yet tabled his hand - he is claiming the pot by having the only live hand remaining at the table

Example B) the same two players, on the river, Ten, Jack, Queen, Ace, Seven on the Board, Four Colours, Player A Bets, Player B Raises, player A calls (which he can do because he doesn't have the exclusive nut hand!) Player B then tables Ace Queen for two pairs. Player A therefore MUST table both his King and his other hole card in order to claim the pot as Player B has tabled a hand of Two Pairs. Player A must table both cards to claim the HIGH HAND, not on this occasion the last live hand, as player B has already tabled.

RE tabling one card and mucking the other, only where they hold the last live hand would they claim the pot, in all other circumstances, where there are still players with 2 hole cards (In Hold'em) then they no longer have a hand and are unable to claim the pot.

Hope this helps
Stuart

[Spence]

I find it odd that you would be having trouble in a self dealt game. Perhaps if you educated some of the players that it is in their best interest to get as much information out of the individual who wishes to not show his card they would better enforce the rule. As a delaer we aren't there to gather information on other players so we don't care if someone doesn't show(except for the fact that we have a rule to show both)
All said Stu summed it up nicely by saying that the last live hand wins. In hold'em a person without two cards does not have a live hand.

[JasperToo]

Stu did sum it up nicely.  The way to get people to enforce it is to make the rule clear and then get at least one of the dealers to push the pot to the player with the last live hand and when the TD is called make sure they back that up with "you no longer have a live hand, it takes two cards to win".  I guarantee the shenanigans will almost completely stop.

[mooredog]

It definitely would stop. A player asked me why he had to show both cards when one was enough to show an unbeatable hand.The reason is that we could have a fouled deck. Rare yes, but it does happen.

[W0lfster]

I dont see a problem if a player won a pot uncontested if thats what you are getting at and showed one card but that would be the only time. Once action is complete on the river (bet and everyone calls) for example its cards speak and you have to show both cards to win the pot.

[Nick C]

Any player that wants the pot needs to show both hole cards in hold-em. Players have a right to know that he only had two cards! That's a good enough reason.

[W0lfster]

Yes but I don't see the point if the player who showed one card is the only player left in the hand. The player wins by default end of IMO, it doesn't matter what the player does. If you were to enforce the rule that the last remaining player has to show both cards and he/she shows one then mucks not knowing the rule are you saying we would have to keep the pot intact for the next round? Im sorry but it would only lead to complicating the issue. I go by the ethos of if you don't pay to watch a movie then why should you be entitled to see it?  Theres a saying in lots of poker scenes in movies quoting along the lines of "Dammm what do you have?" "Youll have to pay to find out won't you". If the hand was contested at the river then yes because someone has paid to see those cards and both hole cards MUST be shown. Anyone see my line of reasoning?

[chet]

Wolfster:  the key words are "Contested Pot".  If ALL of the other players have folded and there is only one live hand remaining, there is NO Contested Pot, IMO and the last player does NOT HAVE to show his cards.

Chet

[Pepper_W]

In an uncontested pot players will typically show the worst card.  I really don't care what they show at that point, its their option.  We finally had a player show one card and throw the other in the muck face down.  When I ruled that the other live player won the pot there was plenty of smoke, but it did in fact stop all the showboating with one card.

Thanks for the input.  I just like to double check myself on things to make sure I'm making the right call.

 

[Nick C]

I have to say, I am having a tough time with this subject of contested or uncontested hands. If dealers and players follow TDA rules #12 : Showdown Order...that should solve most of the problems. At the showdown the last aggressor shows first. If he elects to muck, the remaining player wins. If multiple players remain, they will contest the pot. Players still retain the right to see a called hand.