Counting Chips Question

[squiggly]

This one stumped me at our home game last weekend.

Scenario: 8 players left in tournament. UTG asks BB "How much have you got?" prior to acting in the hand.

Is dealer obligated to count chips?

Thanks!

[JasperToo]

If a player who's turn it is to act is asking another player how many chips he has that opponent has two choices:

1.  make sure all his stacks are visible to his opponent and stare at the wall...

2. or count them out himself....(or give a fairly good estimate)

The dealer has NO BUSINESS answering the question and it's a visual game if the chips are stacked in front of your opponent, count them yourself!  (this is true in a cash game or tourney)

The dealer should only count down a stack if it is in the pot (say an all in situation or a big bet) and only then if the player WHO'S TURN IT IS TO ACT ASKS!! for a count.

[Nick C]

Jasper,
 I wouldn't go that far to tell squiggly that the dealer has no right to answer the question of how much the bet is in a cash game. It's not a game of "smoke and mirrors," at some point, the damn chips will be counted. I see nothing wrong with getting an accurate count before I call. If I need the dealer to break-down the stacks so I can get a better look, or if I trust the dealers count, I'll ask.

[squiggly]

If I may... it is not a question of a count to determine if he will call. It was before any action at all in the hand. I don't know if that would make a difference in your thoughts or not.

[WSOPMcGee]

The dealer is not "Obligated" to do anything as far as counting chips that are in someone's stack.

When a player asks another player "How much do you have?", the dealer is not to do anything.

The player should have the chips stacked and in clear view. The player is also not obligated to respond assuming the chips are stacked and in clear view.

However, some TD's like to believe that live tournament poker should follow internet poker's lead, meaning that every player should know every players chip count at all times and require every player to count every chip when asked "How much do you have?".

Usually a rough estimate is good enough if a player wants to respond and give an answer.

Until the chips are wagered, IMO, they shouldn't be counted.

[Nick C]

Thomas,
 In a cash game, I don't agree with you. The dealer should never count the pot for a player, unless it's pot limit, but I think they can devulge the amount of a bet if they are asked. I see it every day at the WSOP. The dealer will repeat the amount of the bet to the next player. What's wrong with that?

[JasperToo]

Nick, I don't think you are understanding the premise of this thread.  There is no bet.  Nobody has put chips in the pot yet.  No pot or bet for the dealer to count. 

We are talking about the amount of chips sitting in front of a player and his opponent wants to know how many he has.... his opponent is under no obligation to count them (though he is actually obligated to keep them visible and stacked in a countable fashion).  And the dealer is not to be involved here at all.

[DCJ001]

Nick. You are confused with regard to two of the posts that you have replied to.

The original question asked if it's okay for a dealer to count a player's stack if another player requests a count. A dealer should not count a player's stack of which he is still in possession. If a player makes a bet, those chips are no longer part of a player's stack, and a dealer should certainly count a player's bet.

No one but you, Nick, has made reference to a dealer counting the pot in no limit, counting the pot for a player is not allowed

[Nick C]

Ahh, Sorry guys. DCJ001 is correct. I thought that a bet was made and the player asked the dealer how much. No, the dealer is not obligated. In fact, that would go against standard procedure for any game, tournament or cash.
 
 I am glad that you said: "If a player makes a bet, those chips are no longer part of a player's stack, and a dealer should certainly count a player's bet." You will find that there are many who will not agree with you. I am with you on this one, and thanks for bringing the mistake to my attention.

[DCJ001]

It happens to everyone, Nick.

Sometimes, in an effort to read quickly, I assume that someone is saying what a lot of people say, but they're saying something completely different.

I assume that's what you did.

[Spence]

Unfortunately for me I have to say just the opposite of everyone else. Everywhere that I've played and worked it was never a players responsibility to give away any information regarding their stack size. It was up to the dealer to give an accurate count for anyone who asks. The player was only to make his/her chips accessible to the dealer to be cut down and counted.
In your card rooms if a player asks for a full count on another players stack who does it? If it is the player then I think you've got a definite integrity issue on your hands. It would be really easy for me to misrepresent my stack. Say I had 23,000 when I really have 43,000. Is it another players responsibility to correct me? No. It would be the dealers. Wouldn't you just avoid that whole mess by having the original count be done by the dealer? I am deply concerned for any place where if I ask the dealer for a count they CANNOT get involved. If I ever need a count from another persons stack I always direct it at the dealer. This is what our dealers are taught as well. If a player asks another for a count, it is the dealers responsibility to ensure that the proper amount is given. A player would never be asked to count his/her stack in our casino. The notion seems ridiculous to me.

[JasperToo]

Spence, while it's true that in a lot of rooms the dealers will give a close count of a players stack if asked, we are contending that it is not appropriate.  Particularly in a tourney.  There was a fair amount of discussion of this at the summit.  The idea being that an opponent should be able to see your stacks and count them for himself.  And does he really need a count down to the penny to make a decision?  Not really.  I think it would be fair if he asked the dealer if the players big chips where all out in front and nothing was hiding behind.

I think your premise has merit, though, that to protect the player from giving away a tell when he counts his stack that the dealer might better be the one to count it down.