Author Topic: accidental skipped blinds hand  (Read 11815 times)

W0lfster

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accidental skipped blinds hand
« on: May 01, 2011, 06:48:26 PM »
NL holdem 6 players, I was down my local pub and was faced with a situation where the players on the blinds had skipped 1 too many for the new hand. The person who shouldve been the BB put the SB puck in front of him and posted the SB and the player who shouldve been UTG posted the BB also not realising the mistake. Everyone folds around to the blinds and the player on the button says " Hold on a minute the blinds have skipped thats a misdeal".

I then said about substancial action as being 2 or more players acting on the hand before calling attention to the error, which they did of course if you can call folding as action.

Is what I have said coorect? Or is the button right to call it a misdeal regardless?

If the hand was to continue, would you consider the players on the blinds to take their blinds back and get the players to post their proper blinds in proper order?

Thanks :)

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2011, 07:07:33 PM »
RRoP V11 - SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES
IRREGULARITIES
1. In button games, if it is discovered that the button was placed incorrectly on the previous hand, the button and blinds will be corrected for the new hand in a manner that gives every player one chance for each position on the round (if possible).

Hope this helps :)

W0lfster

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 07:11:05 PM »
Thanks Dave, so am I right in what I am saying? It sounds as if I am.

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 07:19:07 PM »
Thanks Dave, so am I right in what I am saying? It sounds as if I am.

The TD ruling is final and as long as there is a valid reason which keeps the [edit] Best [/edit] interest of fair play and integrity of the game, there should be no need to doubt yourself :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 07:24:02 PM by Dave_The_Maori »

chet

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 08:35:27 PM »
Andy:  

In my opinion, there should have been a misdeal.  The only action was several players folding, no calls, no raises, etc.  Calling a misdeal would not have any possible negative effect on any one other than possibly the two players who have not acted and who are somewhat "at fault" because the blinds are in the wrong place to begin with.  Also, what is the guy doing that is seated between the Button and the SB or is that seat vacant?

By not calling a misdeal you are possibly rewarding these two/three players.

That is how I see it.  

btw:

Dave:  I don't think your quote from RRoP, Irregularities, #1 is applicable.  The button was not in the wrong place in the example Andy gave, only the Blinds.

Obviously, there are several folks at that table who cannot afford to "Pay Attention".
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 08:38:30 PM by chet »

W0lfster

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2011, 02:38:27 AM »
Thats right Chet, the blinds were in the wrong position not the button. So if there were 2 or more calls/raises in this situation would you let the hand continue without adjusting the blinds?

Stuart Murray

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2011, 05:46:09 AM »
Andy,

You made the correct decison, RROP is very specific in that two people acting on their hands pre-flop requires the hand to be played out, I actually added "Including passing" to our rule to ensure it was clear.  I would play the hand out and then as RROP suggests, correct the blinds/button backwards for the next hand then jump them forward 2 places for the hand after that.

I do feel Dave's quote of RROP Irregularities #1 is valid in order to correct the blinds, which I have done on two occasions that I am able to recall, where pretty much exactly this situation Andy has described has occured.

The rule Andy is using is this from RROP > General > Misdeals
1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

Here's how I worded the rule:
Once action begins a misdeal cannot be called. A player with an incorrect starting hand (eg 3 Hole
Cards or a Joker) shall have his hand declared dead, and loose any chips they have placed into the pot, with the exception
of if that player has raised and the raise has not yet been called, they will be entitled to return of the raise portion of their
bet.  Action is considered to have occurred when 2 players have acted on their hand (including passing pre‐flop)

Best
Stuart
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 05:50:50 AM by Stuart Murray »

chet

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 01:02:10 PM »
Stuart:

I'm sorry, but I can't agree that playing the hand out is the "fair" decision.  If there had been a call or a raise, I would agree with you, but since it was folded around to the button, I believe the fairest decision is to cancel the hand.  Part of my reasoning is that no matter what you do if you let the hand play out and then try to correct the button/blinds in following hands it seems to me that one player is going to have the button for two consecutive hands.

Chet

Stuart Murray

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2011, 03:55:22 PM »
Hi Chet,

I do understand your reasoning, but for me the defining point of the RROP rule is where it says "Once two people after the blinds have acted on their hands" to me, if it is folded all the way round the table, there is sufficient ground to continue the hand, infact I actually forced a hand to be played out where one player shouted it was a mis-deal and it was not but by the time I had arrived 6 of the 10 headed table had returned their cards, in response to the players call, but it was not a mis-deal so the remaining players played the hand out as they had the good sense to hold on to their hole cards.

I don't see how someone is getting the button twice as the person missed the button on the first hand, gets it back in the second hand and then gets the hijack seat (button -2) in the 3rd hand, It would be exactly the same as if players had acted in middle position, where you would of continued the hand, the blinds and button would be rolled back in the next hand to correct the missed positions of that hand and then moved forward 2 places on the 3rd hand.  IMO that's the most consistent given the RROP rules on misdeals, unless two ace of spades appear etc the hand will play out.  That's not to say that if the error is noticed and alerted before action has occurred or if only one person acts then it is alerted, a mis-deal will be announced.

Best
Stu

chet

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2011, 06:24:36 PM »
Stuart:

Here is how I see it assuming the button is correctly placed at Seat 1:

Hand in question --

Seat 1 button
Seat 2 sleeping or whatever
Seat 3 posts SB
Seat 4 posts BB

etc.

What do you do with the button and the blinds to get things back in order?  Remember, the button was correct with only the Blinds out of order.

Maybe I am too old, but I can't figure it out.

Sorry,

Chet

Spence

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2011, 08:44:05 PM »
The rule may be right but I think that the call is wrong. It just makes more sense to me to misdeal the hand. I get the feeling that if I tried moving the button back and forth to correct the mistake then that would cause further delays and more outrage than simply a misdeal. No chips were committed and the blinds had not yet acted. As a TD we have to rule fairly and what is best for the game. In this circumstance the best choice for me is a misdeal. However, when Stu said that on another occasion as he got to the table when a misdeal was wrongfully called and some players had mucked their hands, I do play that hand out, same as him. When it is NOT a misdeal but a player calls one, and several players muck behind, I would not bend to the will of the table and call a misdeal. That would be a break in the integrity of the game. As TD's we must be flexible but also firm when players are trying to use a sitution to their advantage.

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2011, 05:53:37 AM »
First, I would like to Thank everyone for their input.
Secondly, I would like to apologise for the very non-specific answer I gave to the OP'er. The responses I gave didn't specifically answer the OP'ers questions as I knew there would be mixed reactions.
Finally, To fully understand the question, I think a more illustrated example would suffice as Chet has done so eloquently.  

Stuart:

Here is how I see it assuming the button is correctly placed at Seat 1:

Hand in question --

Seat 1 button
Seat 2 sleeping or whatever
Seat 3 posts SB
Seat 4 posts BB

etc.

What do you do with the button and the blinds to get things back in order?  Remember, the button was correct with only the Blinds out of order.

Maybe I am too old, but I can't figure it out.

Sorry,

Chet


Assuming this is Dead Button (Which is where I think all the confusion is), IMO, I would play the hand out as this sets a presidents that any time the Blinds / Button is placed incorrectly (Regardless of the specific and substantial action) the show must go on. Once the hand is complete, I would remind the Dealer (Not in front of the Players) the proper Dealing Procedures that the Button does NOT dictate the Blinds, it's the Big Blind that dictates the placement of the SB and Button. To rectify the situation I [edit=miss click for proof reading] wouldn't [/edit]

IMO, this would be the fairest Ruling and still keep the integrity of the game. For all I know, there could be a grievance in that situation where all Players Folded around to the Button who was holding Rockets. It would seem like a punishment to that Player even though they did nothing wrong (Which is partly the reason why I dislike Redeals). I also see no reason to punish Seat 3 (Which sounds like a newbie) for mistakenly Posting the wrong Blinds (Instructed by the Dealer or not). However, I think consequences should be enforced for deliberate or repeated offences.

In my mind's eye, it makes sence (Not to mention, that I have a carefully developed rule that covers this situation in the "House Rules") because no one is given any benefits or disadvantages from playing the hand out.

I believe that the best thing you can do is what you are doing right now, which is, discuss various rulings with fellow TDs and use the info in documenting a "House Rule" for yourself and what makes sence to you.

Hope this helps :)

[edit=added] I think the best solution I could come up with is to break the table :p [/edit]
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 06:43:21 AM by Dave_The_Maori »

Stuart Murray

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2011, 07:22:37 AM »
Hi again Chet,

No need to apologise, no-ones claiming either way is the must do method, and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this one!

I understand your confusion over the button and blinds, but to avoid confusion I would refer to Dave's quote <the Button does NOT dictate the Blinds, it's the Big Blind that dictates the placement of the SB and Button>

Or my favourite, "The Big blind is the locomotive and the SB and Button are carriages following it round the track"

Now there is a problem with seat 2, is someone there? did they get the first hole cards? did they get the last hole cards in the deck? I don't know the answer to that and it is not part of the question we were asked so we need to infer a few details, however, and (this is what makes it relatively simple for me) because there has been more than two people acting on there starting hand, it will play out, I like Dave's explanation of why the hand plays out and agree with it in full.

Yes, it looks like seat 1 is getting the button twice in this circumstance, but so what, it's no different from the SB busting during a hand, which gives the button twice to the adjacent seat (unless a collapse occurs on another table) the Big Blind goes back one for the next hand and then jumps forward by two seats for the 3rd hand, and from there we have restored the normal orbit.

The overriding factor for me is two players act on their hand, and that's it, the hand has to play out in some way shape or form, unless theres a reason due to a fouled deck to misdeal the hand.

Best
Stu

W0lfster

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Re: accidental skipped blinds hand
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2011, 07:35:47 AM »
Thats a point you brought up Stuart, where was player 2? Well the answer was he wasnt really paying attention and neither were we to be fair but he got dealt in anyway and played the hand and folded.

LOL at Chet's remark, sleeping! Its a mad pub down there! LOL

Anyway Stuart Im a bit confused as to why the next hand person on the button is the button twice, surely thats far too much of an advantage?