Author Topic: A very simple question!  (Read 8074 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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A very simple question!
« on: April 18, 2011, 07:04:53 AM »
I'm sure you will relax with that one:

2 players at the river on a huge pot:

Player A bets
Player B think about what to do while hitting the table wit his fingers ...
Player A claim for a fold sign
Player B claim not at all: he was even thinking about raising etc ...
Dealer admit to the floor that the finger movements of player B could be misunderstood

I ruled a fold to protect player A and the spirit of poker: it wasn't a friendly game at mummy's home and all the players are supposed to know the rules: "Rapping the table is a pass" and any movement that looks like it is at your own risk!

Let's make he players responsibles of their actions!

NO?



chet

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 07:10:22 AM »
I have never seen a room where rapping the table or tapping fingers on the table would be considered a fold, a pass or a check 'yes' but not a fold. 

If there was confusion as to the players intent, it should have been clarified by the dealer and certainly by the floor before any decision was made. 

Brian Vickers

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 07:47:38 AM »
If this is a house rule, my opinion is that you should abolish it at once.  Saying "fold" (or the equivalent) outloud or throwing in your cards face down should be the only actions that would signify a fold, in my opinion.

Nick C

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 11:02:45 AM »
Chet and Brian said it all. When the player tapped the table the dealer should let him know that there is a bet to him. Player A had no right to assume that the player had folded. Until Player B releases his hand into the muck, or across the betting line, the hand is live. I have a bad feeling that Player B had the better hand, am I right?

 Rapping the table on your turn to act is considered a pass or check, like Chet said. Rapping the table means nothing if there is a bet in front of you. You can't make the right calls every time, so think it over and get it right the next time.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 07:08:58 PM »
WOW ... I see the confusion ... the distance of the Ocean and maybe a wrong point for a lots of people from a LONG time!

The very old tradition from the five card draw was that the word "PASS" was meaning CHECK if before any bet and FOLD after any bet. So I think the old rule #10 inside the "Betting & Raising" chapter of the RRoP saying: "Rapping the table with the hand is a pass!" together with the "Pass is another way of saying 'fold' in poker, to give up or laydown a hand" ... sent lots of people in the wrong direction for a long time!

I really love your interpretation gentlemen because it's much more easy to apply. But believe me: I know so many tables around here where if you hit the table while being raised at the river ... you're gonna loose the pot!

I asked the question to try to find a majority and to follow the TDA ... I'm also ready to follow you but I'm sorry: there are no stupid question.

;)

« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 07:29:01 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 02:31:00 AM »
Guillaume,
 You are correct, there are no stupid questions. You are also correct about the use of the word pass meaning the same as checking or possibly even folding. The game has evolved and one of the changes, is the use and meaning of the word "pass." In a draw game, like " Jacks or better" each player in turn would respond by either opening the betting (they would later have to prove that they had openers), or "pass" which meant that they did not have the qualifying hand or "openers." A player rapping the table, or saying I pass, or pass, or any gesture that indicated they did not want to wager was the same as a check. They were still allowed to compete if another player opened.
 In a stud game, a player facing a bet may "pass' or "fold" by turning their face up cards over. They are out. The hand is dead. There used to be games that were "bet-or-out," or "pass-and-out," or "forced bet" games so...when the action came to you, you either had to bet, raise a bet in front of you, or fold, there was no other option. If you were first to act you had to Pass (fold), or bet.
 The confusion is partly in the english lanquage, there are many words that have similar meanings. Pass/Check, Pass/Fold are kind of the same but it depends on the game of poker being played.
 I will give you the definition of the word PASS from Chuck Ferry's Rules Of Poker Book; 1) Decline to bet. In a pass-and-out game, this differs from a check, because a player who passes must fold ....2) Decline to call a wager, at this point you must discard your hand and have no further interest in the pot.
 Rapping the table or some other gesture is generally accepted as checking but remember, checking and passing can have different meanings depending on the game being played. Your original question would still require the player to surrender his hand before it is considered dead. Tapping the table, or rapping on the table, when facing a bet (especially head to head), is not enough to kill the hand.
 I hope this helps.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:49:52 AM by Nick C »

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 06:25:34 AM »

Tapping the table, or rapping on the table, when facing a bet (especially head to head), is not enough to kill the hand.

Thanks for your complete answers!

I'm ready to change all our texts on that point but (and hope this will not offend you) can some other managers confirm that please?

Because it will change so long traditions around us ...

!?!



 

JasperToo

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 07:07:51 AM »
It is true that a "Pass" can mean "fold" in most forms of poker, a few more than others.  However, at least for the last decade, rapping the table always means "check".  If checking is not an option for that player at that point then they have to fold, call or raise.  The gesture never means "Fold"

Very frequently when it is a players turn to act and they are facing a bet, they will verbalize "pass" and muck thier cards.....

Make the changes, you'll be glad you did.

Spence

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2011, 10:29:02 PM »
The very old tradition from the five card draw was that the word "PASS" was meaning CHECK if before any bet and FOLD after any bet. So I think the old rule #10 inside the "Betting & Raising" chapter of the RRoP saying: "Rapping the table with the hand is a pass!" together with the "Pass is another way of saying 'fold' in poker, to give up or laydown a hand" ... sent lots of people in the wrong direction for a long time!


In the rooms that I've worked this has always been true. "PASS" is a check when not facing a bet. "PASS" is a fold when facing a bet. I guess we're old school?

WSOPMcGee

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2011, 05:25:51 PM »

Tapping the table, or rapping on the table, when facing a bet (especially head to head), is not enough to kill the hand.

Thanks for your complete answers!

I'm ready to change all our texts on that point but (and hope this will not offend you) can some other managers confirm that please?

Because it will change so long traditions around us ...

!?!


I think Guillaume, if I'm reading this right, that what you're originally referring to is this (using your example):

2 players at the river on a huge pot:

1. Player A bets
2. Player B think about what to do while hitting the table wit his fingers ...

Let's stop it right here. Typically in the States and also abroad, a player who is getting ready to concede the pot will tap the table as a sign of "good hand" "you win" type of gesture. The gesture is usually a full pat of the table or they will lift their cards in their hand and pat the cards on the table all the while glancing back at their cards. These type of gestures in and of themselves are not grounds to kill that players hand.  This I can confirm for you 100%.

Player A claim for a fold sign
Player B claim not at all: he was even thinking about raising etc ...
Dealer admit to the floor that the finger movements of player B could be misunderstood

I'm most concerned here by your statement concerning the Dealer. Dealers should not offer their interpretation that "movements of Player B could be misunderstood". That's not for the Dealer to decide or even give an opinion on. Dealers need to be instructed to give the relevant facts.  But I digress .....

Player A has no claim for a fold sign. The only signs that declare a fold is a verbal statement of "Fold" or the forward release of the cards toward the muck. Usually this claim by Player A generally occurs after they see the above gesture and then muck their hand after thinking that Player B has conceded. Unfortunately for Player A there is now no recourse. Their hand is in the muck and is not retrievable. They are going to lose the pot. One caveat, if Player A has released their hand but it is not in the muck, their hand is live and retrievable.

 For players it is paramount that they maintain possession of their cards until the dealer awards the pot to them. When a player in this situation objects to your ruling it is our job as Floor Supervisors to educate the players. The more we educate the players the better off we will all be.

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Guillaume Gleize

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2011, 11:58:24 PM »
Thanks Wsopmcgee for the confirmation!

One last point please:

So if I apply this rule (new for us), imagine at the TURN:
Player A bets
Player B starts rapping the table with is hand
Player A throws is cards forward (retrievables) thinking B is folding (in our tradition)
Player B claim to be the last player with a live hand !?! (and a lot of other situations this way I'm gonna meet because of the habits) ...

Would I steel protect A???
TY

WSOPMcGee

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2011, 02:11:57 AM »
Short answer... Yes, you are protecting Player A. Their hand is retrievable as long as it is not in the muck.

Long answer... Because your players are already in the habit of thinking they won because another player has tapped the table is going to become your job to educate them.

The best way to change their habits is to have written literature available to read and also for you to have literature that backs up the rulings (floor decisions) that are made at the tables.

Specifically for this situation, I would point to these rules:

  • Cards are thrown into the muck inadvertently may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at managementís discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
    From RRoP and ROPE - Deads Hands 2.1 www.pokertps.com/rope_12.php#dead
  • You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.
    From RRoP Irregularities v11
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Guillaume Gleize

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Re: A very simple question!
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2011, 01:14:01 PM »
Short reply: TYVM!

;)