talking out of turn

[JasperToo]

Red shows up best, it has no other meaning for me.

I think I was trying to say that the second example doesn't change my opinion about the hand being dead.  We probably disagree on what substantial action is (though Thomas has the best definition I've seen).. but in both these examples substantial action occurred by my definition.  Therefore, I say the hand is dead.

I think we can only assume that since the action became substantial that the missed player was not doing HIS job of watching the action and acting in turn to preserve his right to act.  I can also get behind the fact that the DEALER could have controlled the action a bit too but that is part of the assumption that the missed player was even less involved in the action than the dealer (nothing happening at that seat, dealer missed it along with two or three players, that kind of thing)

The smiley faces are at the top of the message dialog, click them to add them, but pick the right mood!

[Nick C]

Jasper,
 We may disagree on what substantial action is but, I'm saying that substantial action alone does not kill the skipped players hand. I am in the minority, I know but, I don't recall ever seeing that unless the dealer burned and turned before it was noticed. The intent of the player must be considered.
 Did the skipped player let the action pass him by intentionally? Why did the next player bet out of turn? Was that intentional? Why did the dealer let things get that far? To tell a player that his hand is dead because; the clown on his left bet out of turn, and the dealer didn't stop the next player from calling, is a little hard for me to take. Some of you had better hand out a warning, or post one at the entrance to your card room to let new players know that they had better be up on all of your rules, or they might be in for a few surprises if some irregularity takes place at their table.

[RobinK]

 Hi All,

 I am working as a floorman in Europe and my interpretation of this rule is as follows.
 
1) The player is facing bet and let 3 or more players to act after him/her.............DEAD HAND
2) The player is NOT facing a bet and let 3 or more players to act after him/her...............He/she has lost his/her right to act, but his/her hand is live and he/she is assumed to "check" in turn.

 regards

RK

[Nick C]

RobinK,
 What rule are you refering to? There is a rule for ACTING OUT OF TURN (TDA #29), but I know of no such rule for killing a players hand unless the next card is played before they act, or they did not call the final round of betting before the showdown. When you say that the player is facing a bet, and lets 3 players act after him, what do you mean? Did the dealer tell him it was his bet and he refused? Why did he let the action go by him? Tell me what rule kills his hand.
 One of the biggest problems IMO, too many of us look at the rules as PUNISHMENT for irregularities when we should be looking to offer more PROTECTION for damage to non offending players.

 How does a player not facing a bet, let players act after him. I don't understand.

[chet]

Ah Nick, have ye not 'erd 'bout MP3 players, earphones, music players and the like.  I have seen players so 'into their tunes', that they hardly know where they are much less what they are doing or supposed to be doing.  Not to mention alcohol.

I don't have much sympathy for players who are not paying attention.  Players who are mislead or given incorrect information are entirely another matter.

Chet

[RobinK]

 HI nick,

 I was refering to your previous conversation with Dave.

 If the player in turn does not pay attention and other players on the table and the dealer are not aware, that he is still in the hand and the action carries on with 3 or more players acting then the player lost the right to act on that betting round.
 
 Ergo, if the player was facing a bet and lost his right to act then He/she can not make a call or raise to stay in the hand. = Dead hand
  If it is after flop and the player does not face any bet and same situation occurs, then he/she lost the right to act (make a bet in this case) and he/she is assumed to "check" his option, but remains in the hand with a live hand.

 Regards,

RK
 

[Nick C]

RobinK,
  I understand that a player in a later round who is skipped, and two or three players checked after him, it is assumed that he also checked, and he can not bet, but only fold or call if someone else bets in front of him. I agree that the hand is still live. So are you telling me that if three players check past the skipped player, the hand is live, but if three players bet after him his hand is automatically dead? I don't agree. If the dealer acts and turns another board card before it is discovered that a player was skipped, then his hand is dead. If three players act after the skipped player and it is caught in time, I say that the player still has a live hand, and can only fold or call.

 Chet,
 If a player is deliberate in his action by hiding his cards, or not paying attention, or listening to his MP3 player, or staring at the cocktail waitress then he is the offending player. There has to be a time when it is noticed that the player did not participate in all betting, if this happens, then the hand is dead. Substantial action alone will not kill the players hand.

Show me the rule.

[Brian Vickers]

I'm more in favor of this:
*If there is substantial action past a player who has not acted, and the dealer has put out the next community cards(s) without anyone bringing attention to the skipped player, then the hand is dead.
*If there is substantial action past a player who has not acted, and the dealer has NOT put out the next community cards(s), then that player may not take aggressive action during that betting round but his hand is still live. (He may call check or fold only).

[Nick C]

Brian,
 Thank you, where have you been? Take a look at all of my posts on this subject and that is exactly what I've been saying. Now we just have to convince the other 1200 or so, that don't see it our way. Perfect. Substantial action alone, does not kill a skipped player's hand. I rest my case.

[Brian Vickers]

I was posting on the other thread that's just like this one 

[RobinK]

 Hi Nick,

 Have a look again on my previous post please. If you read carefully, you will see that I wrote "player who is facing a bet".

 example 1. After the flop was dealt, there is still 6 players in the hand.  A,B,C,D,E,F

A- bets  100
B- is not paying attention, does not make any statement or action
C- folds
D-calls 100
E- raises to 400

At this moment the player B says" wait! I did not acted yet", dealer calls me to the table to make ruling. I rule that player B has a DEAD HAND.

example 2. After the flop was dealt, there is still 6 players in the hand.  A,B,C,D,E,F

A- checks
B- is not paying attention, does not make any statement or action
C- bet 100
D-calls 100
E- raises to 400

At this moment the player B says" wait! I did not acted yet", dealer calls me to the table to make ruling. I rule that player B has "checked", his hand is live
and when the action comes back to him He has all the options(fold,call,raise).

Your opinions please.

Regards,
RK






 

[Nick C]

RobinK
I'm sorry but I still feel strongly against killing the players hand in your example:

Hi Nick,
Have a look again on my previous post please. If you read carefully, you will see that I wrote "player who is facing a bet".

 example 1. After the flop was dealt, there is still 6 players in the hand.  A,B,C,D,E,F

A- bets  100
B- is not paying attention, does not make any statement or action
C- folds
D-calls 100
E- raises to 400

At this moment the player B says" wait! I did not act yet", dealer calls me to the table to make a ruling. I rule that player B has a DEAD HAND.
 

[mooredog]

If the next card is put out it's a no brainer. Dead hand. It gets touchy if it hasn't been put out yet. Did the player call attention to being missed quickly and 3 people had already acted because they were very quick to act? Or did the players act at a normal pace (whatever that is) and then the missed player speaks up? It's somewhat of a judgement call which puts a TD to the test but if you rule his hand live it's to fold or call only. I would lean that way with a stern warning to the missed player to pay attention and speak up quickly.

[Nick C]

Amazing! Everyboby is still blaming the poor bastard that got skipped! ......"Oh Mr Jones, your hand is dead because Freddy bet out of turn and then the dealer let Sally raise Freddy's bet." I'm smiling, but it really isn't that funny.

[Stuart Murray]

I'm not so sure Mr Jones was born of 'Dubious Parentage' though ;-)

edit: Actually now that I think of it I did not realize Bastard was a term used outside of (predominately) England, we use it colloquially in Scotland as a derogatory term, how is it used stateside?

Stu