Author Topic: Raise or Call  (Read 8676 times)

Georg

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Raise or Call
« on: February 27, 2011, 11:51:41 AM »
Tournament Blinds 200-400
1st Player raises to 1200, next player puts in two 1000 chips and says nothing.
Your call?

Georg

chet

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 12:48:08 PM »
I would rule it a raise.  Player 1 "raised" 800 for a total of 1200.  The minimum raise for the next player is 1600 for a total of 2,000.

That is how I see it.  Lets see how this discussion goes  :)

Oddvark

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 01:13:31 PM »
It would be nice if the TDA had a set of rules that we could use to address these situations.  And it would be even better if there was a specific rule about multiple chips.  And can you imagine if they included an example that matched this hypothetical situation exactly? But apparently no such "Rule 33" exists.

Nick C

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 01:27:12 PM »
I rule it a call. To me that is like the single oversized chip rule. Without declaration of a raise, it's a call.

 TDA rule #33 covers this exact situation; multiple same denomination chips is a call if removing one chip leaves less than the call amount.

The 2010 WSOP Tournament Rules; Page 7 #84 Putting a single oversized chip or multiple same denomination chips into the pot will be considered a call if the player doesn't announce a raise.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 03:24:22 PM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 05:44:47 PM »
If asked to rule on it 'by the book' for TDA purposes it is a call, once again it is a player's responsibility to make their intentions clear.  I have even saw myself putting in 2,025 (2x 1k 1x25) in order to make my raise clear

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011, 07:37:10 PM »
I will quote Georg, to help understand the rule as written; "Tournament Blinds 200-400
1st Player raises to 1200, next player puts in two 1000 chips and says nothing." It is a call because there were TWO 1000 value chips. The number of (same value) chips makes the difference, not the amount. If the player had tossed in a 1000 and two 500's, it would be a raise.


chet

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2011, 08:30:18 PM »
Ok at the last summit, rule 33 was adopted after much discussion.  I need someone to tell me why putting 2-1000 chips in the pot a total of 2,000 is not a full raise when putting 1-1000 chip and 2-500 chips, again a total of 2,000 is.  I understand the part about removing one chip and the remainder not being enough to call.  If this is a call, then I submit the rule is entirely too complicated for the average Joe to understand. 

I agree that the player could have eliminated the whole problem had he said 'raise' and that verbalizing one's bets is best.

The problem is that, using this example, sometimes 2000 is a raise and sometimes it isn't.  There must be a way to make this better.

Georg

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2011, 10:36:39 PM »
I would also rule it a call.
Chet, to call 1200 it would be enough to put in 1x1000 and 1x500, so if you put in 1x1000 and 2x500 it is a raise. However 1x1000 is not enough so another 1000 has to go in!

If you consider this a raise, then it would also be a raise if it went like this: BB is 400 raise to 1400 and then 2x1000 go in. The minimum raise would be 2400 but 2000 is over 50% so you would have to force the player to raise because he put in two chips.

If I did not make myself clear with the second example I will try to rephrase.

Georg


Stuart Murray

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 06:23:33 AM »
the defining point in rule 33 is it is "Multiple same denomination" chips as Nick has already pointed out where removal of 1 chip would leave less than a call, I struggled with the rule at first also until I realised it was all about same denomination chips being used.

I agree with Chet about the average Joe not understanding this rule fully, however we have been using TDA rules for some time now and the majority of players are now very apt at making their intentions clear silently or verbally.  It is a rule that has certainly improved the ettiquette at my tables and players soon get used to it with one false move they quickly adjust after their intended unclear raise being ruled a call the first time they stumble across this scenario.

Georg in your second example it would also be a call as removal of 1 chip leaves 1,000 - 400 short to call therefore it can only be a call under TDA rule 33, if you are using it.

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 07:09:11 AM »
Georg,
 In your second example, you are wrong and Stuart is correct. If you don't understand the ruling , maybe we can explain it better. It has nothing to do with any percentage. The only way it would be recognized as a raise is; if the player said raise before tossing in the short amount. He would then be obligated to complete it. Whithout a verbal declaration of "raise", it is only a call.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 07:20:42 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 07:14:47 AM »
Somewhere along the line, subsequent to the Summit, the verbiage for Rule 33 must have been changed as the printed copy I have been using does NOT refer to 'same denomination'.  I guess I will have to reprint my reference copy.  Adding 'same denomination' makes a considerable difference.

Nick C

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 07:32:38 AM »
Chet,
 Your last response brings to light the importance of adding, or eliminating a word or two, to any rule. Sometimes that's all it takes to get it right, or the way it is intended. If the rules were clear to all, we would have no need for any TDA Summit. This is what the Discussion Forum is for.

Georg

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Re: Raise or Call
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 09:03:46 AM »
I would also rule my second example a call. What I meant was that if you rule the first one a raise, you would also have to rule the second one a raise. And I think the second one is obviously a call.

I did not even know of rule #33 before  ::)

Thanks for the confirmation!

Georg