Poll

EPT Barcelona - Who wins the pot?

Tobias Reinkemeier
6 (100%)
Roland De Wolfe
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Author Topic: You are the Tournament Director  (Read 11211 times)

Nick C

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Re: You are the Tournament Director
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 06:26:10 AM »
I do not recall that either player requested to see the others hand. I know that If De Wolfe had turned his cards over he would have won. Why didn't he? He was embarrassed, that's why. Chet you are correct about the winning player asking to see the opponents hand but, any player has a right to see a called hand. If Spence is correct about Reinkemeier asking to see the hand, then that changes everything. I never knew that.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 07:13:38 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: You are the Tournament Director
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 10:27:55 AM »
Nick:  You are correct in that any player can ask to see a called hand.

HOWEVER, the ONLY TIME a folded/mucked hand becomes live is in the example I gave (where the apparent winner asks to see the folded/mucked hand of the apparent loser).  The apparent losers hand becomes live and if it is the better hand MUST be declared the winner and receive the pot. 

In ALL other cases, the dealer MUST kill the hand, then display it.  The hand is dead and CANNOT WIN any part of the pot, even if it is a better hand.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: You are the Tournament Director
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 11:58:37 AM »
Chet,
 You are correct. So any time I read about a hand being retrieved from the muck I cringe. The only exception is if the hand were properly tabled and the dealer mucks it by mistake. Therefore, De Wolfe had no chance to win the hand unless Reinkemeier asked to see it. Which leads to one of myl questions from an earlier post; as to whether the final two players MUST table their cards in a tournament, and according to all I've read, the answer is NO, unless one of the two players is all-in.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 12:04:12 PM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: You are the Tournament Director
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2011, 01:57:16 PM »
Show one show all, applies in this circumstance, however I am unlikely to honour a players request to see a mucked hand, poker is an individual sport and players have the right to muck a hand as they see fit.  Applying the show one show all also requires that if a hand cannot be displayed (because it is in the muck) that the player AT LEAST in good faith disclose the contents of ones hand, again even when a player (heads up) has bet the river, been called and then immediately mucked when showdown was reached, the hand is over, and the other player gets the pot without showing also as he has the last live hand at the table, again the player who called the river bet can ask to see the mucked the hand - but it's unlikely I'm letting them see their opponents hand. That's the way I see it under current TDA rules.

Regards
Stuart

Spence

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Re: You are the Tournament Director
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2011, 02:48:00 PM »
Spence:  The rule is that if the player to whom the pot is going to be awarded, asks to see the losing players cards, the losing players cards are then live.  It doesn't make any difference if it is the calling player or the betting player, it is the action of the apparent winner that determines the status of the apparent losing hand.
I think Chet clears up the language very well here. Specifically though the rule from RRoP is stated as such:
Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
Show one show all, applies in this circumstance, however I am unlikely to honour a players request to see a mucked hand, poker is an individual sport and players have the right to muck a hand as they see fit.  Applying the show one show all also requires that if a hand cannot be displayed (because it is in the muck) that the player AT LEAST in good faith disclose the contents of ones hand, again even when a player (heads up) has bet the river, been called and then immediately mucked when showdown was reached, the hand is over, and the other player gets the pot without showing also as he has the last live hand at the table, again the player who called the river bet can ask to see the mucked the hand - but it's unlikely I'm letting them see their opponents hand. That's the way I see it under current TDA rules.

Regards
Stuart
One of the issues we have here is that this event did not abide by TDA rules. Stu's point indicates that we DO need more standardization in our rules. This is one of the most interesting hand that a TD could come by and I for one would like something to fall back on.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 04:32:09 PM by Spence »