Author Topic: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem  (Read 7270 times)

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« on: April 03, 2011, 05:52:41 PM »
NL Hold em blinds have gone up, but the SB and BB players have mistakenly posted their previous blinds without realising the blinds have gone up. The cards have been shuffled and one of the players says "blinds are up" The SB and BB say "We have to keep our blinds as they are, as we posted the blinds AFTER the first riffle of the deck by the dealer" Are the players corrrect? If they had posted the previous blinds BEFORE the first shuffle of the deck would they be forced to match the current blinds that have gone up?

Thx  :)

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 06:30:05 PM »
when the players posted their blinds is irrelevant.  The only relevant piece of information is when the first riffle of the deck occurs, before the blinds go up means you play the previous level, after means you play the new level.

The first riffle of the deck marks out the start of a new hand, not whether a player has managed to get his blind in before the new level was announced.

Regards
Stu

Dave Lamb

  • TDA Founding Member
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 65
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 09:05:00 PM »
Spot on explanation, Stuart!

Oddvark

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 09:43:09 PM »
Stuart described it correctly, but I think it is important to note that there are really two relevant pieces of information:  (1) when the next hand begins - which by rule is when the first riffle occurs, and (2) when the new blinds go into effect - which is when the new blinds are announced by the TD. 

The second piece of information can be important because if the tournament clock shows that it is time for the next level, but this increase has not been announced to all the dealers, the blinds should stay at the old level.  This is  to ensure that all tables in the tournament play at the same blind levels.

I was also wondering how people would determine the start of the next hand when two decks are being used.  For example, if shuffle machines are being used, and one deck is being shuffled for the next hand while the current deck is in play.  In that situation the dealer never riffles the deck himself, and the first machine riffle takes place before the previous hand is over.  (A similar thing  happens in self-dealt home games using two decks -- the deck for the next hand is riffled before the previous hand is finished.)

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3345
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 12:14:58 AM »
Oddvark,
 I'm not certain about two decks but, it might be a ruling similar to the one used for automatic shufflers; TDA rule #18 A hand begins with the first riffle. If an automated shuffler is used the hand begins when the green button is pushed. OR International Poker Rules; Rule #46 NEW LIMITS: A "new deal" is defined as the first riffle made by the dealer or when the dealer's cut is made after removing the cards from an automated shuffle machine.
 I think cutting the deck when two are used would be a good way to define a new hand.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 12:19:33 AM by Nick C »

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 02:58:58 AM »
Ok but what if the players and the dealer has made a mistake in posting the previous blinds when they have gone up. Does the hand play as it is when there has been action on the UTG preflop?

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 04:28:08 AM »
Nuts Poker League Rule:

New Limits When time has elapsed in a round and a new level is announced by a member of the tournament staff or
software, the new level applies to the next hand. A hand begins with the first riffle(shuffle). If an automatic shuffler is
being used, the hand begins when the green button is pushed. Posting blinds in lieu shall not qualify for retention of the
previous level.

"Dual decking" is not permitted in any game I run and neither would I participate in a dual deck game, I have used it previously and it just gets messy. The only exception to this obviously is where a shufflemaster is used and the table is dealer dealt. which is accommodated within TDA and Nuts rules.

Wolfster: Once action occurs a misdeal cannot be called, once two people have acted on their hand the deal must play out, I would therefore apply this rule to what blinds were posted, but remember when the blinds were posted was irrelevant to what what the blinds are during that hand.  If say the new level is announced, the deck is riffled, dealt and the old blind level is posted, then 3 people act out during the hand without realising the level is up, then I would probably let them play the previous level.  Another consideration you could make is substantial action, for example if only one player had called before attention was drawn to the level up, then you could correct the amounts before proceeding.

Regards
Stu

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 05:52:00 AM »
Thank you Stuart, one last thing, although this is a very rare occurence if the dealer in lets say a self dealt game has trouble shuffling and riffles slowly, what would be the ruling if the blinds went up while he/she was in the middle of shuffling the first riffle, so not a complete riffle. Would you keep the previous blinds in? Or the next level blinds in?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3345
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 06:00:38 AM »
Andy,
 If I can add to what Stuart has told you. The UTG alone does not qualify for substantial action, so if caught in time, the bet and blinds should be returned and corrected to the proper players. The SB and BB are not considered action.

Brian Vickers

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
  • Poker Manager
Re: blinds in before the cards are dealt problem
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 07:39:25 AM »
The other posters have been spot on, but I just wanted to add one more thing while we're on the subject of tournament blinds.

When the Tournament Clock is visibile, it is very important that dealers never up the blinds until the T.D. announces it (or the automated voice announces it over the speakers if you have that option).  Sometimes the T.D. will not see that the blinds have gone up, but one or more dealers will see the clock.  Those dealers might try to up the blinds on their table but other dealers at other tables will still be on the old level.  Blinds obviously need to be the same at all tables, so until it is audibly announced, dealers should keep blinds the same. 
Now, just because a dealer does not up the blinds on their own doesn't mean they shouldn't bring this to the T.D.'s attention (tactfully) so that the oversight can be attended to.