Author Topic: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in  (Read 17213 times)

RobinK

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an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« on: February 01, 2011, 06:35:23 PM »
Hi All,

 On the flop Player A bets all-in and is called by player B. There are no more players in the hand. At this moment dealer makes a mistake and burns 2 cards and then deals the TURN card. One of the players has noticed the mistake and i was called to solve the problem. It was very easy to identify all the burn cards and the proper sequence, so since the last betting round was the FLOP and after there was no more action possible, I have reconstructed the hand as it would have come , if there was no mistake made. According to RROP this is a right decision
"For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded. "

 However, player A did not agree with me and wanted the deck to be reshuffled. Still I am pretty sure my ruling was right.

Question 1. Would you rule the same way in the situation described above?

Question 2. What if, 2 players are all-in pre-flop and for some strange reason, the dealer forgets to burn the card and deals the flop without it. Does all the cards need to be reshuffled or we make a correction by burning the proper card and placing the proper flop? Thank you for your opinions.

Regards
RK

chet

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 10:14:07 PM »
RobinK:

From Robert's Rules of Poker (RRoP) v11, section 3, Irregularities, Sub 16:

"16.   If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card."

The MOST IMPORTANT part of the above statement, in my opinion and the part that can be used as a basis for rulings on many different dealing errors is:  "Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred."

So, my answers to your specific questions would be:

#1 - Absolutely, your ruling is 100% correct.
#2 - See above, the deck is NOT RESHUFFLED, the correct resolution is to burn the proper card and place the proper flop.

Since this is an 'all in' situation involving only two players, there can be no negative effect of making the correction as there is no more action to be taken.

Hope this helps!!

Nick C

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2011, 09:19:08 AM »
Chet,
 I don't understand what RRoP is saying. The only solid statement is; if action takes place on a board card the action stands. Why would you use one of the extra burn cards as the next burn? Wouldn't one of them be the turn card? What we need are examples of how we correct the situation. There is a difference if two cards are stuck together or two cards are burned one at a time. According to RR I guess it was handled correctly but, I must be missing something.

Stuart Murray

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 10:54:30 AM »
hi Robin,

You made the correct decision, as there was no action on the turn/river they can be corrected as if no error had been made.

with regard to your no burn card on the flop if all-in pre-flop I would treat it as a TDA rule 28 FOUR CARD FLOP, by taking the card off the deck that should be the 3rd Flop card and using said rule to correct.

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2011, 11:45:01 AM »
Stuart,
 I want to know if you can explain this part of RR:  "if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round." The way I see it, if the dealer burns two cards instead of one after the flop, there is no way that the turn card can play. The only certainty would be for the improper turn card to be returned to the deck and used as the final burn before the river. Why wouldn't we choose one of the improper burns as the turn?

Any response would be welcome.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 02:23:40 PM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2011, 05:18:06 PM »
Nick, I believe the rule is saying that ONCE ACTION IS TAKEN then the "incorrect" burn card has to stand but the correct river card must come out so you have to count the "extra" burn card and use it for the next burn before the river.  Another example might be what if the dealer forgot to burn a card and put the burn out as the turn and ACTION WAS TAKEN.  That bad turn has to stand according to the rules but we want the correct river to come out.  So we would burn the next two cards and put out the river.

So, as Stuart pointed out, two burn cards preflop with the board are handled with rule 28.  After the flop they would be handled with section 3 sub 16 as I understand above.  An interesting twist that might help see what the rules are meant to do: What if preflop the dealer FORGETS to burn a card and ACTION is taken on the flop.  That action should stand and the next TWO cards should be burned before the turn is put out..  That way you have the correct turn and river cards even though one of the flop cards is "incorrect"....

Nick C

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 07:34:03 PM »
Jasper too,
 Do you think that rule is clearly written? I understand when substantial action, or significant action takes place the board plays. How do you correct two burn cards (three including the correct burn before the flop), and a turn card on the board, with certainty, when noticed before action takes place? One of those cards should be the proper burn and the other the turn, correct? What happens to the exposed turn card?
 I would scramble the two burns, and use one as a burn and the other as the turn card. I would then use the exposed turn card as the final burn (which is where it belonged if no error had occured). The exposed turn card would be placed back on top of the deck, covering the proper river card. After the betting round, the burn would be placed on the board (face down with the other burns) and the proper river card would be dealt. The way I explained it is the easiest way and I think the best way to guarantee at least 80% of the proper board, and very possibly 100%. There is no reshuffle required. The bad part is one card was exposed.

 Stuart, with regard to your explaination for placing the flop on the board without a burn, don't you think it would be better to reshuffle (scramble) the three card flop and get the burn from those three cards, and use the next card as part of the flop? That would be the only card, for certain, that would be the correct flop.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 09:21:12 PM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 06:41:51 AM »
Hi Nick,

Your interpretation of the rules in your examples is correct. with regard to your question about no flop burn and keeping the 3rd flop card that is not in keeping with TDA rule 28, although couldbe deemed 'in the best interests' so I would be happy to go with a 3 card scramble also, but generally I would just go with a 4 card scramble to keep it as simple as possible.  RROP states that 'further cards should be issued as if no error has occured' so that therefore in my interpretation means that the turn and river should be unaffected, the four card flop rule 28 is still in keeping with RROP s3-16

Regards
Stuart

JasperToo

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2011, 09:35:36 AM »
I do happen to think that those rules are clear.  I think you can use them easily to keep as much of the board correct (or correct it depending on ACTION) in any situation. 

The example you gave about 2 burn cards before the turn (I assume that the flop burn and flop were correct?) is a good way to correct the error BEFORE ACTION.  Though, I happen to think that if the dealer is following good procedures, overall, save for the mistake of an extra burn card, that there would be no reason we couldn't just take that second burn card that we know to be the proper burn card and put it on the board and take the improperly exposed card and use it for the river burn (cause that is what it is).
If it is unclear as to which of the 3 burn cards (or just the last two I guess, but I would think they were all mixed) should be the turn card then your solution is a good one.

Nick C

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 10:47:16 AM »
Jasper Too and Stuart,
 I am glad to know that you have followed my reply to this post. It is something that I have always preached to my student dealers; PROPER CARD. I will try to continue with some facts that might help others sort out a mistake by the dealer. Jasper, there are two scenarios that could cause an extra burn card on the table; two cards sticking together, or two cards incorrectly burned one at a time. If it is clear which card is the proper burn, then the problem is easier to solve.
 I want to shift to the question of procedure when the dealer puts the flop on the board without a burn:
    All of the dealers I train will take the cards off the deck one at a time. Example: After the burn is placed under a chip in the pot, the three flop cards will be placed face down on the table one at a time, on top of the preceeding card. To follow what I am teaching I would like you to take a deck of cards and use a king (or any card) as the burn, and then use an Ace, deuce and a three as the three top cards. To begin, you will have the deck in your hand with the King on top, the ace next then the deuce and finally the three. Burn the first card and place the flop on the table face down. Now spread the flop onto the table from left to right and you will find that the Ace will be on the far right. This was the first card that comes out ("C" position as in - A first card, B second card, and C the third card) on the board from left to right. Therefore, if that situation should ever happen in our card room, we would easily be able to correct the board to the proper card without re-shuffling the top four cards. The "C" card was the first card off the top, this would make it the proper burn, if the burn were skipped pre-flop.
I hope I've made this clear. I will also say that I have never experienced no burn pre-flop, however, for some strange reason skipping burn cards did happen on a regular basis when dealing stud.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 10:55:08 AM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2011, 04:22:18 PM »
makes perfect sense Nick,

It's actually even easier for European croupiers as we deal one card at a time onto the flop, so in your example K (burn) A (a) 2 (b) 3 (c), so we can correct any flop error without any issue whatsoever, which reminds me I still need to get a video of said 'slide' dealing done for you!

Regards
Stuart

DCJ001

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2011, 04:54:09 PM »
I assume the style of dealing in this video is the "slide dealing" to which you are referring, Stuart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiBOeDx26RU#t=7m14s

Nick C

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2011, 06:09:15 PM »
Stuart,
 Glad you took the time to go over what I wrote. I've seen the "slide dealing" before but am not real versed on the placement of the board cards. No hurry, whenever you have time.

Stuart Murray

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 05:02:39 PM »
djc, your video is of 'slide' dealing or it's official name: European Underhand Dealing so your assumption is correct.

we refer to Overhand dealing as 'pitch', 'pitching' or 'pitch and toss' or it's official name I believe is American Overhand Dealing.

Generally speaking Croupiers (licensed) use Slide and Poker Dealers (unlicenced) use Pitch, but there are a lot of circuits which insist on Pitching the cards instead,  I myself prefer slide.

Regards
Stuart

K-Lo

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 06:51:20 PM »

with regard to your no burn card on the flop if all-in pre-flop I would treat it as a TDA rule 28 FOUR CARD FLOP, by taking the card off the deck that should be the 3rd Flop card and using said rule to correct.

Regards
Stuart

I hope people don't mind if I revive this thread temporarily, but my question is relevant to this.

If the dealer forgets to burn a card per-flop, and the error is discovered prior to action being taken on a board card, AND there is some doubt as to which card ought to have been the burn (if the dealer is dealing properly as Nick points out, we should be able to identify the proper burn, but let's assume that we cannot), would we take the next card off the deck and treat as a four card flop situation?

This is how I am currently interpreting the TDA rule... It is consistent with the new four card flop rule, and I will rarely reshuffle flop cards in the deck except in very very rare circumstances.  I particularly don't want the first player to act to have the choice of acting on the card (thus keeping the flop) or pointing out the error (hoping for a reshuffle).  Do we agree?  If you agree, can I confirm that we are consciously no longer following the approach of RROP where there is a specific rule that indicates that the flop should be reshuffled?