Author Topic: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own  (Read 11415 times)

mooredog

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player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« on: January 31, 2011, 09:43:23 PM »
I"m playing in a tournament in our room and a player in seat #1 not paying close attention grabs one card from his neighbor in seat#2 as the dealer is still pitching the second cards. The button is at seat 5 or 6 and as the dealer pitches card two to seat #1 he pulls all the cards together (his 2 and his neighbor's first card) then the neighbor gets his 2nd card and says "Hey, I've only got one card because the guy in seat #1 grabbed my first card and mixed it with his cards. The td came over and ruled a misdeal saying there was no action. Unfortunately a player at the other end of the table turned pocket aces up when he heard misdeal and threw a fit. Personally I thought the ruling was wrong and everyone else at the table should have live hands. I thought either both players hands would be dead (certainly the offender's hand) or possibly the guy in #2 sitting with one card receives another card off the deck and we use one of the 3 cards in seat #1 as the burn card. I like that solution the best. What do you think?

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 02:18:12 AM »
I"m playing in a tournament in our room and a player in seat #1 not paying close attention grabs one card from his neighbor in seat#2 as the dealer is still pitching the second cards. The button is at seat 5 or 6 and as the dealer pitches card two to seat #1 he pulls all the cards together (his 2 and his neighbor's first card) then the neighbor gets his 2nd card and says "Hey, I've only got one card because the guy in seat #1 grabbed my first card and mixed it with his cards. The td came over and ruled a misdeal saying there was no action. Unfortunately a player at the other end of the table turned pocket aces up when he heard misdeal and threw a fit. Personally I thought the ruling was wrong and everyone else at the table should have live hands. I thought either both players hands would be dead (certainly the offender's hand) or possibly the guy in #2 sitting with one card receives another card off the deck and we use one of the 3 cards in seat #1 as the burn card. I like that solution the best. What do you think?

For the reason that the TD gave, I would have to agree as there had been no action made. However, I would have taken it one step further by issuing a warning to #1 for a first offence or penalty if it was a re-occuring offence for not protecting themselves or the others on the table.

Nick C

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 08:11:12 AM »
Dave, I have to agree with Mooredog. Players have a responsibility to protect their own hand. It is unfortunate when things like this occur. However, I would have ruled both hands dead. I try to avoid a misdeal whenever any player has their complete starting hand. You can understand why the player that had pocket aces would be upset. He received his "proper cards" so why should they be taken from him?
 There are times when situations like this can get out of hand. I remember an incident that happened while I was dealing; I called for a ruling and before the "floor" made it to the table, three or four players tossed their cards into the muck!
 I question the method suggested by mooredog; if the decision would kill the offending players hand, but allow the other player to get a new second card. I would rather give the player a card from the deck stub (we used to take the third card from the bottom), this will prevent a player from announcing the cards that he had, (just in case he looked at one before it was taken).
 In defense of Dave_the_Maori, I have made the wrong call many times in similar situations without incident, because none of the players liked their starting hand. We always strive for consistancy, that's what makes it tough sometimes.

Stuart Murray

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 10:54:13 AM »
Players in seat 1 and 2 have dead hands and the remainder of the table get to play the hand out, there is no reason to rule a mis-deal in this situation, and the hand should play out, I would penalise the player in seat 2 for not protecting his hand and seat 1 for his 'unethical behaviour' by not paying attention to the initial deal.

It would likely be just a single missed hand penalty for both players if it was a simple mistake but one things for sure, that hand will play out by the others.

I had a similar situation to Nick where several players tossed in their hand and only 3 players were left with live hands but I insisted the hand must play out as the initial hole cards were dealt out correctly.

Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:55:39 AM by Stuart Murray »

JasperToo

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 02:12:57 PM »
I agree with Stuart's ruling and how he handled it but I think I would be more inclined to simply give the player in seat two a warning for not protecting his hand and a one hand penalty to the guy busy grabbing cards.  Though even as I say it they are both technically the same kind of offense (assuming the guy in seat 1 isn't doing it maliciously)

chet

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 02:45:12 PM »
Before giving a more serious infraction to the player in seat 1 (who grabbed the wrong card), I think we need to ascertain why.

I have seen many instances where the dealer sends a card that goes under the rail (and is almost completely hidden) and the card to the next player is sent between the two players, such that it is possible that card was intended for either seat 1 or 2.  If this "infraction" was due to sloppy dealing, I think it unfair to give a more substantial penalty to the player in seat 1 if he could reasonably believe the 2nd card may have been his. 

Penalizing players for sloppy dealing solves nothing and may alienate the players. 

So my point is that the TD needs to determine WHY and gather ALL the facts before making a decision.

I totally agree with Stuart that those two hands are dead and the rest get to play the cards as dealt.  There is NO cause for a misdeal whatsoever!!

Hope this helps!!

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 03:45:55 PM »
It would likely be just a single missed hand penalty for both players if it was a simple mistake but one things for sure, that hand will play out by the others.

Just out of curiosity, would you count this hand as the "missed hand penalty"?

Stuart Murray

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 04:17:40 PM »
Hi Dave, and others,

perhaps I should of been clear - I don't warn players, I penalize with at least a one hand penalty, that is why it's a 1 hand penalty and not a warning, but many TD's a warning will suffice.

Dave, the penalty starts after the current hand, and never during a hand (even if it is a disqualification, which is the current method applied by the TDA)

Regards
Stuart

W0lfster

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 07:17:15 PM »
Personally, I would issue both players 1 and 2 a warning and declare both their hands dead and a penalty the next time there is the same infringment. I would let the hand continue as normal.

Regards
Andy.

pineforest

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 01:15:08 PM »
But what if seat 2 was all in, in the BB.  Then would you make it a misdeal?  What if 2/3rds of his chips were inthe BB?

Just being the devils advocate.   :)

Nick C

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 01:47:01 PM »
 I always find it easier to kill a players hand when they are not all-in, or not in a blind position with chips in the pot. I suppose it should be irrelivant but, killing their hand and forcing them to surrender their blinds is a tough lesson. That is why we used to use the method that I described above; I would rather give the player a card from the deck stub (we used to take the third card from the bottom), this would not alter any proper card to any other player, and would be in the category of a random card, assuming that none of the mixed cards were seen before the mishap was noticed. These are tough calls that can come back to haunt a TD if they are not consistant with their rulings.


 

Stuart Murray

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Re: player grabs one card from neighbor and mixes with his own
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 04:48:24 PM »
pine,

The amount of chips seat 1 or 2 have is irrelevant, if they fail to protect their hand it is dead, in the same manner as if they call all-in facing more than their stack and discover they have 3 cards, 1 card or the dealer then accidentally kills their hand, they loose what they have in unless they have raised and the raise has not yet been called.

A tough lesson for any poker player, but by the book, in the best interests of the tournament, and the most consistent way to apply the rules.

Regards
Stuart