Author Topic: BB all in below minimum  (Read 5632 times)

W0lfster

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BB all in below minimum
« on: January 11, 2011, 08:04:34 AM »
What is the ruling on this, say blinds are 100/200 and the BB goes all in for 170 what is the minimum raise for other players ? is it 400 or 370? (170+200)
Thx.

Stuart Murray

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Re: BB all in below minimum
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2011, 08:26:13 AM »
if the BB is all-in for less than the forced bet (200 in your example) other players must open by calling the forced bet (200) and not the BB's all-in of 170, the opening raises are as per normal, ie the minimum raise being 400 total at 100/200 level (presuming limit is No Limit), once betting action is complete a side pot is established for everything over the 170 the BB is all-in for - example one player raises to 500 with one caller, SB folds so 610 main pot (presuming no antes) and side pot between two heads-up players of 660.

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: BB all in below minimum
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2011, 11:32:46 AM »
Stuart,

 That's interesting. I know that pre-flop when the BB goes all-n for less than the proper bet, that the next player must call at least the required size of the BB. In your example, you are saying that the next player wishing to raise must complete the bet and then make a full raise. Is that correct? If so, what difference would it make if the game were limit or no limit? The raise rules have always given me headaches. After the flop, with blinds of 100/200 the minimum bet required is the size of the BB. What are the raise options to the next player, after the all-in short bet of 170. Example; after the flop, Player A goes all-in for 170. Can the next player just call the all-in? If so, why? Isn't that the same as the required BB in the above situation? What about a raise? It's my understanding that a minimum raise in this situation (according to the rules) could be 370. I always have problems with the raise rules for no limit. The limit games are easy to understand. I hope I've made myself clear. Thanks
 

JasperToo

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Re: BB all in below minimum
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 09:07:55 AM »
That's interesting. I know that pre-flop when the BB goes all-n for less than the proper bet, that the next player must call at least the required size of the BB. In your example, you are saying that the next player wishing to raise must complete the bet and then make a full raise. Is that correct? If so, what difference would it make if the game were limit or no limit?

May I suggest to you NickC that your confusion over no limit raising rules is likely because you are always trying to relate it to limit raising rules? 

I think that is demonstrated above where you ask "...a player wishing to raise must complete the bet and then make a full raise.  Is this correct?"  The answer is 'sort of'.  Yes, the player has to put in the amount of the big blind and then make a full raise (at least the size of the BB)  But it is NOT true that that player is COMPLETING THE BET.  The action to that player in this case is the forced bet(BB) even if the player in the BB doesn't have it.  Completing the bet is a concept NOT used in no-limit.

I'll grant you that the change that can occur POST FLOP confuses things just a bit because while the minimum bet is supposed to be the size of the BB the first player to open the pot could be ALL-IN for less and then every player after that has the option to just call.  All I can say to that is - That's just the way it is.

After the flop, with blinds of 100/200 the minimum bet required is the size of the BB. What are the raise options to the next player, after the all-in short bet of 170. Example; after the flop, Player A goes all-in for 170. Can the next player just call the all-in? If so, why? 

Yes, the next player can just call - Why? - because he can (it's just different rules after the flop as it relates to an all in open)

Isn't that the same as the required BB in the above situation? What about a raise? It's my understanding that a minimum raise in this situation (according to the rules) could be 370.

It is not the same as the required BB (I guess because there is technically no 'forced' bet after the flop, just a minimum if you have it)
You are very correct about the size of the raise in this post flop situation.

This is difficult and I know I have had my own confusion over parts of it too.

Stuart Murray

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Re: BB all in below minimum
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 09:42:54 AM »
Hi Nick,

NL & PL I treat it like this:

The Forced Bet is the amount which the SB and BB have to post
The SB and BB are positions and not amounts

Any player Pre-Flop who wishes to participate in the hand must match or exceed the amount of the "Forced Bet" unless going all-in for less than the forced bet, even where the BB position is all-in for an amount less than the Forced Bet, if we were to allow players to merely call a short all-in from the BB the limits on betting and raising would be altered during that hand, so in order to maintain the correct blind level, intervening players must compete for the full blind amount.

Post-Flop a player must bet an amount at least the size of the current blind level, unless going all-in for an amount less than the blind level or bet he is facing, so in your example if the first player moves in for 170 total post flop, the next player may call 170, or raise to at least 370 total as the 170 is action only after the flop and not action changing.

Hope that helps!

Stu
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 09:47:40 AM by Stuart Murray »

Nick C

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Re: BB all in below minimum
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 12:20:58 PM »
Jasper Too,
 Thanks for your response. It is confusing, isn't it.

Let's look at all of the possible raise options for no limit.

When facing a bet:
       Fold, Call or Raise
When raising, what is the minimum raise allowed? (We will eliminate the all-in player for now).
 ANSWER: at least the size of the bet, or the size of the biggest raise to you. (NOT THE TOTAL OF THE BET AND RAISE)

In my opinion, this is where all the confusion comes from:
                 THE ALL-IN PLAYER
What are the options to the player following the short bet of an all-in player: Pre-flop......the bettor must at least match the BB, unless action is head to head
.
What are the options after the flop?  The player following the short bet (less than the BB) of the All-in player may; Fold, Call* or Raise (*note, the bettor is not required to bet the minimum anymore).

How much is the minimum that the player can raise?
Example: Blinds 100/200, after the flop. Player A goes all-in for 50, the next player wishing to compete for the pot may call, or make the minimum raise of 200 more for a total of 250. In fact, any all-in of less than the required 200 (up to 199) would require a minimum raise of 200.

When a player goes all-in with more than the minimum required: Example Blinds 100/200, after the flop the all-in initiates a 210 bet. The next player wishing to raise the minimum must raise another 210 to a total of 420. If a player bets the 200 in front of the all-in for 210 (only 10 more), the next minimum raise option would be another 200 for a total of 410, because this matches the largest bet for that round 200.

If I am incorrect on any of this, Id like to know. This is how I understand the rules as written.

Tried to keep it short but thats almost impossible.
Stuart, Thanks for your reply, I was writting this while you posted. I think I have this correct, when you have time look it over. I respect your opinion.

Thanks for listening
Nick




JasperToo

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Re: BB all in below minimum
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 05:25:35 PM »
If I am incorrect on any of this, Id like to know. This is how I understand the rules as written.

The description you just gave for the rules on raising in no-limit are exactly as I understand them.  You seem to be correct in each situation.  Unless someone sees something I do not.

May I ask.... is this a new understanding for you?

Nick C

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Re: BB all in below minimum
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 08:22:48 PM »
Jasper Too,
 I understand the rule, but I don't like it. It's too complicated. I would like to bypass the action of any all-in player (as if he weren't there), but perhaps we should discuss that at another time. I quarantee that there are members that will understand the raise rule a little better after reading my last post. Thanks for your response. It's always good to hear from you.